Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...

[David Lyon <david.lyon@globaltradedesk.com>]

Chris,

You make some great points. I was just in Asia for four months and I was
impressed with just how many Small businesses there actually are there.

You are also correct in saying that their needs are so dramatically
different from large companies. It's quite true that SMEs often run two sets
of books. Cash transactions and contra-deals are very popular.

About a decade ago, I remember being on a multi-million dollar project to do
electronic commerce on a MIPS box. It was an EDI project.

Last week I noticed that the very same RISC processor that we had on the
MIPS boxes was now available for around ten dollars through an electronics
supplier.

Yet sadly, the software since then has hardly advanced in the area of
electronic commerce.

The standards being set in XML and ebXML can all be implemented on 8/16 bit
processors if the need arose.

At the SME level, the need for good electronic commerce is very great.

For example, Most SMEs would be extremely pleased if they could take their
mobile phone to the petrol station, pick up the receipt electronically and
go home and upload it to their accounting system. This would require one
ebXML chip being added (or stuck onto) the mobile phone.

Yet even something this simple seems somewhat elusive. We seem to be forever
getting lost in the needs of the big companies.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind big companies. They make good products
cheaper than small companies.

What I am saying, is that for ebXML to have the biggest impact, it needs to
be able to work on the smallest and most local scale.

It needs to keep focus on attempting to provide what it promises, and that
is technology that can work for all businesses, no matter how large or
small.

If it can do this, then it would be a major achievement.

David Lyon
Product Manager
Global TradeDesk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Harvey" <ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg>
To: "Todd Boyle" <tboyle@rosehill.net>
Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...


> Todd,
>
> Extremely well put. It's somehow comforting to know that SMEs in the US
have
> the same 'mentality' as SMEs here in Asia.
>
> The big gap to be bridged is in getting SMEs to understand that there is a
> direct financial benefit to be had; opposing that is their belief that
their
> data must remain 'secret' (as it had for generations - a necessity when
more
> than one set of books have been historically kept).
>
> Rachel is absolutely correct when she says: It's a business imperative and
> necessary now and into the future to be able to exchange unambiguous data.
>
> As a tech company, we know that. Our government knows that. But getting
SMEs
> to understand that is a whole different uphill struggle.
>
> ebXML is an excellent initiative but... the real SMEs, the mass-market
small
> ones, with 50 or usually less, employees - which make up the vast majority
> of companies - have a mindset that you would not believe unless you have
> been exposed to it. For the success of ebXML, and e-commerce in general,
it
> is imperative that all involved with these important initiatives have a
good
> grasp of the SME mindset.
>
> I hope this is not drifting off topic but it is vital that XML potential
> does not become solely the domain of the big players...
>
> Regards
> Chris Harvey
> Zara Technology Pte Ltd
> Singapore
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd Boyle" <tboyle@rosehill.net>
> To: <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>
> Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> Sent: 22 April 2002 07:56
> Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...
>
>
> > At 09:36 AM 4/21/02, Rachel Foerster wrote:
> >
> > >  It's a business imperative and necessary now and into the future
> > >to be able to exchange unambiguous data. And personally I believe the
> > >future will be **not** the shipping off to a business partner data or
> > >documents, etc. but providing real time controlled access to the
> necessary
> > >information transparently between enterprises so that cross-enterprise
> > >business processes can execute to the desired outcome.
> >
> > As more and more small businesses have always-on connections
> > to the internet, sooner or later it will dawn on them to expose at
> > least some limited views or query interfaces to their customers
> > and suppliers.
> >
> > Small businesses often have only one person performing all roles
> > that interface a particular customer or supplier, and accordingly
> > have no need for business process management. The cost of updating
> > all the statuses and stages of a BP exceed their benefit.  Cell phones,
> > headsets, and the collapse of long distance have made it even cheaper
> > to handle exceptions.
> >
> > I don't wish to diminish the usefulness of ebXML BP in any way, for
> > Enterprise or other value chains where they are appropriate!  But
> > I think the exchange of documents remains the best potential
> > way to get ebXML in the door of SMEs.  And, once they gain some
> > familiarity with it, they will be much closer to supply chain
integration
> > or other BP scenarios.  Here is one fictitious dialog for
> > your entertainment
> >
> > Todd Boyle CPA
> > AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net
> >
> > Let's take a break, and get beat up by a small busieness owner....
> >
> > Q:  "Why should I allow my customer or supplier to see the purchase
> > and sale data in *my* accounting system?? "
> >
> > A: "you already do.  Whenever you send a PO or an invoice. "
> >
> > Q:  Yeah but why should I allow them to see their Account Receivable
> > page, or Account Payable, in *my* system?
> >
> > A:  You already do, whenever you send them a statement.
> >
> > Q.  Yeah, but I never send statements until they have been reviewed
> > at the end of the month and the bank account is reconciled to find
> > all the mistakes in our posting payments.
> >
> > A.  Ok then why don't you expose a view of the invoices now,
> > and expose the reviewed statements at the end of the month?
> > You don't have to change your procedures at all.  Too bad your bank
> > is so unhelpful http://www.gldialtone.com/transaction04.htm
> >
> > Q.  Well why should I do this, what's the payoff for me?
> >
> > A.  Some of your customers might pay you sooner.
> >
> > Q.  Yeah but all my good customers already pay me on time,
> > and my bad customers, I don't think they have the intelligence
> > to use a computer.
> >
> > A.  Maybe when they can login and see their account they will
> > understand it better.  Maybe they are paying their other suppliers
> > sooner than they are paying you. Why don't you try emailing them
> > their statements more often.
> >
> > Q.  Yeah but what are you trying to sell me?  You're just trying
> > to capture me into a central server or single-vendor software.
> >
> > A.  Sharing views *directly* with trading partners is the exact
> > opposite of being trapped in a portal model.  Today, you are
> > trapped in two separate portal models:  first, you are trapped in
> > your local software with no electronic interface...
> >
> > Q.  Yeah but what am I supposed to "Interface" with?  There is
> > no standard. Nobody else has any "Interface" either.
> >
> > A.  Do you vote?
> > Q.  Yes.
> > A.  Do you make charitable contributions?
> > Q.  Yes.
> > A.  How much did you contribute last year?
> > Q.  None of your business.
> > A.  Transaction integration helps the planet and it doesn't
> >           cost you anything.
> >
> > Q.  What do you mean??
> >
> > A.  You're cutting down the paper consumption, getting
> > vehicles off the road, cutting trips to banks and post offices.
> > You're saving labor. People can do more useful things.
> >
> > Q.  Yeah but what do you mean, "Free"?
> >
> > A.  Do you already do accounting work, posting all your sales
> > and purchases?
> >
> > Q.  Yes.
> >
> > A.  Then exposing the data to the trading partner costs effectively
> > nothing. You don't have to compose any new documents. In fact,
> > the trading partner can freeload off your data entry work.  They
> > simply click "OK" to suck your data into their computer and post it.
> >
> > Q.  Yes.  But where is the software to do this??
> >
> > A. There are modules in the open source ebXML projects, and in
> > the VARs and developer communities of most of the accounting
> > platforms.
> >
> > Q.  Why that's ridiculous.  You're bullsh*itting me.   Integration
> > always costs megabucks.   I have been burned many times in
> > the past by computer consultants.
> >
> > A.  In the past, the N-squared problem required a separate
> > software solution for every combination of thousands of software
> > products, that is, *millions* of adapters to connect with each other.
> > Since ebXML is a common format, each accounting platform only
> > needs one adapter.
> >
> > Q.  Well, I don't believe you.   Anyway, you said I am already
> > locked into  *two* different portal traps. What's the other one?
> >
> > A. You are trapped in the banking system with no other way to
> > settle ARs or APs except by running payments through banks
> > for each and every payment.  That wrecks your bookkeeping and
> > your trading partner's bookkeeping, since banks only process
> > payment data and block all the transaction data between small
> > businesses.
> >
> > Q.  That's right.  So, what good is AR/AP integration between me
> > and my trading partner?
> >
> > A.  Settlement intermediaries such as accounts receivable factors
> > can't be cheap today because the data is so confused.  But even
> > a robot can do settlement if data is good.  And if collateralized.
> > What you are doing is uncoupling the interest cost and the risk,
> > which cannot be avoided.  You are making the mechanics of accounting
> > and settlement cheaper.
> >
> > Derivatives, promissory notes or digital cash become more practical,
> > when you have high quality data.  Do you think global corporations
> > all write checks or bank transfers to each other?  at the end of
> > each month?  Not.
> >
> > Q.  OK you're telling me to provide a SOAP interface on my ARs
> > to my customers, and my APs to my suppliers???
> >
> > A.  Yes.
> >
> > Q.   Go away.  That's just not the way we do business in podunk.
> >
> > A.  Ok tell you what.   Why don't you pass me your ARs and APs
> > in UBL, in ebXML core components format, every time you do a
> > purchase or a sale.   You show me how much it's costing you,
> > screwing around with AR and AP, your banking and bank
> > reconcilation, and other settlement after the conclusion of a sale.
> > I will manage the ARs and APs and bank balances for you for 1/2
> > cost.  I will bounce all the business differences back to you, since
> > you're the only one who can resolve them anyway.
> >
> > Q.  Ok.   Deal.
> >
> > A.  Ok then why don't you let the computers connect, and do it
> > for nothing?  You realize, in the long run, I'm going to be charging
> > you money for operating a robot software I got from ebXML
> > open source?    sheesh...
> >
> > Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA
> > International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com
> > 425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net
> >
> >
> >
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