-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Sroka [mailto:AdamS@rewardsplus.com]
Sent: Monday, June
17, 2002 3:23 PM
To: ebXML List (E-mail); ebXML-dev
List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla
hair vs. beach balls
I agree
with Scott's assessment below, but with one caveat: I don't think that web
services are that much easier to define or to describe to a non-technical
person than ebXML is. Rather, I think that web services have been sold very
well by some very influential salesmen. I have used the term "web
services" to sell projects within my own organization, because it has
become one of those buzzwords that causes the ears to perk up on pointed haired
bosses with titles that start with "C." However, in those same
conversations it has become apparent to me that if I asked for a definition of
"web services" from each of them the answers would all be different
and none would be right.
In order
for ebXML to have the same momentum that web services have it would have to be
sold by the right people, articles would have to appear in all the boring
business magazines that pointy haired bosses like to read, and pointless
metaphors would have to be created such that they could be abused in boardrooms
everywhere. I don't know that that will ever happen. It is unfortunate, too,
because ebXML would certainly do a lot more for most organizations than web
services would. Don't get me wrong, web services are great, but in terms of the
real value they add to a business I don't think they're all they're cracked up
to be.
I have
attempted to sell ebXML to business folks, on occasion, and the best
explanation that I was able to get across was something like: "It's like
EDI, but with XML and web services." Obviously this is a description that
anyone on this list (Myself included) could tear apart in a second, but it
makes sense to the audience, and is close enough to the truth to keep me from
feeling dirty ;-) The problem with this explanation is that it is hard to see
where the added value comes from. That, IMO, is why ebXML is hard to sell,
because in order to understand what makes it great you have to get under the
hood, and the moment you do the pointy haired bosses start snoring.
Thanks,
Adam
-----Original
Message-----
From: Beach, Scott [mailto:Scott.Beach@goodrich.com]
Sent: 14 June, 2002
13:25
To: 'colin
adam'; 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jean-Jacques Dubray'
Cc: 'ebxml
org'; 'ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org'
Subject:
RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls
The crux
of the issue... IT managers "think" they understand the concept of
web services (whether true or
not). Major mainstream vendors are pushing
web services(IBM,BEA,Microsoft,
etc) as the future of web interactions, not
ebXML (not that the two play
exactly the same role anyway). I've yet to see
anyone capable of explaining ebXML
to an IT executive without taking an hour
and taking the conversation to such
a technical level that the executive
becomes lost in the details and
stops caring. Does ebXML "define" more than
web services? Absolutely.
Does this make it easier to sell as a concept?
Absolutely not.
ebXML
simply lacks an "elevator speech" that is compelling to IT
executives.
Web services doesn't suffer from
this same marketing paralysis. Another
case where better technologically
doesn't correlate to more successful.
-----Original
Message-----
From: colin adam [mailto:colin.adam@webservices.org]
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 1:17 PM
To: 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jean-Jacques
Dubray'
Cc: 'ebxml org';
ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla
hair vs. beach balls
Duane,
Interesting
choice of title for a news posting. Please give me a chance
to respond before you jump to
conclusions.
Anyway, I
think we misunderstand each other. I see web services vs ebXML
as asking this question...
Does a
person who wants to set up a b2b exchange think about a web
services based solution or an ebXML
solution. I can see projects where
one of the other would be more
suitable. But I would certainly consider
both in some circumstances. On the
ground I think this is happening.
But
before you get annoyed at this statement please consider how we both
define web services. I use it as a
term to refer to soap, wsdl, uddi and
all products broadly based on those
protocols also. The ws-i.org I would
say is a "web services
group" etc.. blue titan's mission critical
network products is a "web
services product"...
Generally
since ebXML uses standards above the core three, I see them as
a separate entity. Connected but
separate. I would call a ebxml product
an "ebXML product", not a
"web services" product. This is just my
opinion and I believe the general
community opinion.
From what
I see there seems to be a general split in the industry
between "web services"
products (things that use the protocols above)
and those that use ebXML. A web
services product is for example an IDE
that lets you create web services
like VS .Net etc..
So, the
wrongs and rights of a poll that uses these terms is a
discussion, but is that the
discussion we are having here..
Or are we
saying that on no basis can there ever be any competition
between an "web services"
product or and "ebxml product"...
Finally,
please understand webservices.org is my own private website,
run off my own server, previously
was a blog for my interests in soap
but has recently attracted some
sponsors to help with running costs, and
I have no connections via jobs to
any companies involved with web
services and have never worked for
web services journal.
I work
hard on my site, and ask that you only take a few moments to
consider my views and perspective.
(this goes to all the flames I seem
to have received this afternoon
also).
Regards
colin
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Duane Nickull [mailto:duane@xmlglobal.com]
> Sent: 14 June 2002 17:38
> To: Jean-Jacques Dubray
> Cc: 'ebxml org';
ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org
> Subject: [ebxml-dev] gorilla
hair vs. beach balls
>
>
> Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:
> >
> > Webservices.org is
running a poll about ebXML vs WS. Cast you
opinion.
> >
> > http://www.webservices.org/index.php/poll/result/27
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> I can't believe someone
actually started a poll on this subject.
>
> I posted the following:
>
> This poll is seriously flawed.
Let me set the record straight on a few
> thing.
>
> A Web service is paramount to
an interface to a programmatic function.
> Since most OO programming
> today uses the concept of
classes, most code that exists has an
> interface to send information
our and
> receive a return type back
from the class. Web Services abstracts the
> communication to a
> programmatic class one step
further by communicating to the class by
> using XML over SOAP (which is
> really HTTP with some XML
extensions).
>
> ebXML, on the other hand, is
an infrastructure that facilitates
> interoperability between
electronic
> business users. ebXML will
probably be largely implemented using OO
> techniques and methodologies.
It is
> therefore quite conceivable
that ebXML could easily be implemented as
a
> set of web services, although
> it is probably not logical to
do so with the current state of WS
(WSDL)
> given lack of thread tracking,
> reliable messaging and
security. There is alos an added burden of
> network lag for each call to a
logical
> piece of work.
>
> This poll is seriously flawed
and will probably hurt both WS and
ebXML.
> I would urge it to be taken
down.
>
> Maybe replace it with a poll
of gorilla hair vs. beach balls - a
similar
> comparative study.
>
> Duane Nickull
>
>
> --
> VP Strategic Relations,
> Technologies Evangelist
> XML Global Technologies
> ****************************
> ebXML software downloads - http://www.xmlglobal.com/prod/
>
>
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