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Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls

And isn't that the essence of marketing, "Sell the benefit - not the

Kyle Shackelford 
Vought Aircraft Industries, Inc. 
Phone:  (972) 946-2760 
Pager: (877) 813-7963 
email: shackky@voughtaircraft.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jjd@eigner.com]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:21 PM
To: 'Adam Sroka'; ebtwg-bcp@lists.ebtwg.org; 'ebXML-dev List (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls

You must be a developer right? JMS ain't ebXML and as you probably missed
it: guaranteed message delivery at the transport level has nothing to do
with guaranteed processing of your messaging by the receiving application
(essential for synchronization of the business state), and "business
transaction" means that we both agree that we succeeded or failed in
synchronizing our state. Could you do business in an environment where
someone could claim that you made this commitment while the other one
refuses to accept it and no-one has any ways to prove it? Those are not big
words, they are real business concepts that every business person understand
on a snap. I even argue that a developer could not care less, for him/her a
call is a call, it should succeed otherwise it is a bug, or maybe you try
the call until it succeeds.




-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Sroka [mailto:AdamS@rewardsplus.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 3:59 PM
To: ebXML-dev List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls


I agree, pronouncing big words is a great way to get business people to
agree with you - mostly because they don't know what they mean but are
afraid to admit it ;-) Once you leave the room, though, they won't even
bother to file it away (I believe the cliché "In one ear and out the other"
is appropriate here.) In the end, whether the project goes or not will have
very little to do with these words. 


I tried to sell a JMS project a few months ago and was very surprised at how
little weight words like "guaranteed messaging," and "transaction" carried
with that audience. In the end, the solution they chose ignored these
principles entirely, not because the business didn't need them, but because
I did an inadequate job of selling them. 


That is my experience, and, of course, yours may vary. 





-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jjd@eigner.com]
Sent: 17 June, 2002 15:44
To: 'Adam Sroka'; 'ebXML List (E-mail)'; 'ebXML-dev List (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls


I can assure you that it takes no more than 50 seconds to explain the
differences between ebXML and web services at any business people from CEO
to business analysts. You just have to pronounce a few words:
non-repudiation, guaranteed message processing by the receiving application,
in addition to guaranteed message delivery, transactional protocol, ...


I would argue that it takes much more than an hour to explain developers why
web services are not enough. 


My 2 cents and real life experience.





-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Sroka [mailto:AdamS@rewardsplus.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 3:23 PM
To: ebXML List (E-mail); ebXML-dev List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls


I agree with Scott's assessment below, but with one caveat: I don't think
that web services are that much easier to define or to describe to a
non-technical person than ebXML is. Rather, I think that web services have
been sold very well by some very influential salesmen. I have used the term
"web services" to sell projects within my own organization, because it has
become one of those buzzwords that causes the ears to perk up on pointed
haired bosses with titles that start with "C." However, in those same
conversations it has become apparent to me that if I asked for a definition
of "web services" from each of them the answers would all be different and
none would be right. 

In order for ebXML to have the same momentum that web services have it would
have to be sold by the right people, articles would have to appear in all
the boring business magazines that pointy haired bosses like to read, and
pointless metaphors would have to be created such that they could be abused
in boardrooms everywhere. I don't know that that will ever happen. It is
unfortunate, too, because ebXML would certainly do a lot more for most
organizations than web services would. Don't get me wrong, web services are
great, but in terms of the real value they add to a business I don't think
they're all they're cracked up to be. 

I have attempted to sell ebXML to business folks, on occasion, and the best
explanation that I was able to get across was something like: "It's like
EDI, but with XML and web services." Obviously this is a description that
anyone on this list (Myself included) could tear apart in a second, but it
makes sense to the audience, and is close enough to the truth to keep me
from feeling dirty ;-) The problem with this explanation is that it is hard
to see where the added value comes from. That, IMO, is why ebXML is hard to
sell, because in order to understand what makes it great you have to get
under the hood, and the moment you do the pointy haired bosses start


 -----Original Message----- 
From:   Beach, Scott [ mailto:Scott.Beach@goodrich.com
<mailto:Scott.Beach@goodrich.com> ] 
Sent:   14 June, 2002 13:25 
To:     'colin adam'; 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jean-Jacques Dubray' 
Cc:     'ebxml org'; 'ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org' 
Subject:        RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls 

The crux of the issue... IT managers "think" they understand the concept of 
web services (whether true or not).  Major mainstream vendors are pushing 
web services(IBM,BEA,Microsoft, etc) as the future of web interactions, not 
ebXML (not that the two play exactly the same role anyway).  I've yet to see

anyone capable of explaining ebXML to an IT executive without taking an hour

and taking the conversation to such a technical level that the executive 
becomes lost in the details and stops caring.  Does ebXML "define" more than

web services? Absolutely.  Does this make it easier to sell as a concept? 
Absolutely not. 

ebXML simply lacks an "elevator speech" that is compelling to IT executives.

Web services doesn't suffer from this same marketing paralysis.  Another 
case where better technologically doesn't correlate to more successful.  

-----Original Message----- 
From: colin adam [ mailto:colin.adam@webservices.org
<mailto:colin.adam@webservices.org> ] 
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 1:17 PM 
To: 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jean-Jacques Dubray' 
Cc: 'ebxml org'; ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org 
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls 



Interesting choice of title for a news posting. Please give me a chance 
to respond before you jump to conclusions. 

Anyway, I think we misunderstand each other. I see web services vs ebXML 
as asking this question... 

Does a person who wants to set up a b2b exchange think about a web 
services based solution or an ebXML solution. I can see projects where 
one of the other would be more suitable. But I would certainly consider 
both in some circumstances. On the ground I think this is happening. 

But before you get annoyed at this statement please consider how we both 
define web services. I use it as a term to refer to soap, wsdl, uddi and 
all products broadly based on those protocols also. The ws-i.org I would 
say is a "web services group" etc.. blue titan's mission critical 
network products is a "web services product"... 

Generally since ebXML uses standards above the core three, I see them as 
a separate entity. Connected but separate. I would call a ebxml product 
an "ebXML product", not a "web services" product. This is just my 
opinion and I believe the general community opinion. 

From what I see there seems to be a general split in the industry 
between "web services" products (things that use the protocols above) 
and those that use ebXML. A web services product is for example an IDE 
that lets you create web services like VS .Net etc.. 

So, the wrongs and rights of a poll that uses these terms is a 
discussion, but is that the discussion we are having here.. 

Or are we saying that on no basis can there ever be any competition 
between an "web services" product or and "ebxml product"... 

Finally, please understand webservices.org is my own private website, 
run off my own server, previously was a blog for my interests in soap 
but has recently attracted some sponsors to help with running costs, and 
I have no connections via jobs to any companies involved with web 
services and have never worked for web services journal. 

I work hard on my site, and ask that you only take a few moments to 
consider my views and perspective. (this goes to all the flames I seem 
to have received this afternoon also). 


> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Duane Nickull [ mailto:duane@xmlglobal.com
<mailto:duane@xmlglobal.com> ] 
> Sent: 14 June 2002 17:38 
> To: Jean-Jacques Dubray 
> Cc: 'ebxml org'; ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org 
> Subject: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls 
> Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote: 
> > 
> > Webservices.org is running a poll about ebXML vs WS. Cast you 
> > 
> > http://www.webservices.org/index.php/poll/result/27
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
> I can't believe someone actually started a poll on this subject. 
> I posted the following: 
> This poll is seriously flawed. Let me set the record straight on a few 
> thing. 
> A Web service is paramount to an interface to a programmatic function. 
> Since most OO programming 
> today uses the concept of classes, most code that exists has an 
> interface to send information our and 
> receive a return type back from the class. Web Services abstracts the 
> communication to a 
> programmatic class one step further by communicating to the class by 
> using XML over SOAP (which is 
> really HTTP with some XML extensions). 
> ebXML, on the other hand, is an infrastructure that facilitates 
> interoperability between electronic 
> business users. ebXML will probably be largely implemented using OO 
> techniques and methodologies. It is 
> therefore quite conceivable that ebXML could easily be implemented as 
> set of web services, although 
> it is probably not logical to do so with the current state of WS 
> given lack of thread tracking, 
> reliable messaging and security. There is alos an added burden of 
> network lag for each call to a logical 
> piece of work. 
> This poll is seriously flawed and will probably hurt both WS and 
> I would urge it to be taken down. 
> Maybe replace it with a poll of gorilla hair vs. beach balls - a 
> comparative study. 
> Duane Nickull 
> -- 
> VP Strategic Relations, 
> Technologies Evangelist 
> XML Global Technologies 
> **************************** 
> ebXML software downloads - http://www.xmlglobal.com/prod/
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