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Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls

If so, those two pieces should be used to build a separate white paper rather than being hidden among the TC-specific information in the Requirements and Technical Architecture documents. In the process of building that white paper, it may become clear whether the content is suitable for both business people and developers or whether it is still too technical for business people and not technical enough for developers.


Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
"Michael C. Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>

          "Michael C. Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>

          06/18/2002 08:10 PM

To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, Jean-Jacques Dubray <jjd@eigner.com>
cc: "'Adam Sroka'" <AdamS@rewardsplus.com>, ebtwg-bcp@lists.ebtwg.org, "'ebXML-dev List (E-mail)'" <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls

Well, maybe neither one is good for business people or
developers.  However, we intended that the "Business Requirements" and
"General ebXML Principles" sections to be useable by anyone.

Mike (ebXML Requirements Team Leader)

At 07:05 PM 6/18/02 -0400, Martin W Sachs wrote:
>I think that the point is that you need different words and especially
>different styles of presentation to business people and to developers.
>Right now, all we have in the way of overall descriptions of ebXML are the
>Requirements document and the ebXML Architecture document. Both of those
>speak to members of the ebXML teams but are good neither for business
>people nor for developers.
>Martin W. Sachs
>IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
>P. O. B. 704
>Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
>914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
>Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
>Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
>graycol.gifJean-Jacques Dubray <jjd@eigner.com>
>Jean-Jacques Dubray <jjd@eigner.com>
>06/18/2002 12:21 AM
>To:"'Adam Sroka'" <AdamS@rewardsplus.com>, ebtwg-bcp@lists.ebtwg.org,
>"'ebXML-dev List (E-mail)'" <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
>Subject:RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls
>You must be a developer right? JMS ain!/t ebXML and as you probably missed
>it: guaranteed message delivery at the transport level has nothing to do
>with guaranteed processing of your messaging by the receiving application
>(essential for synchronization of the business state), and !0business
>transaction!1 means that we both agree that we succeeded or failed in
>synchronizing our state. Could you do business in an environment where
>someone could claim that you made this commitment while the other one
>refuses to accept it and no-one has any ways to prove it? Those are not
>big words, they are real business concepts that every business person
>understand on a snap. I even argue that a developer could not care less,
>for him/her a call is a call, it should succeed otherwise it is a bug, or
>maybe you try the call until it succeeds.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Adam Sroka <
mailto:AdamS@rewardsplus.com>mailto:AdamS@rewardsplus.com] >Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 3:59 PM >To: ebXML-dev List (E-mail) >Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls > >I agree, pronouncing big words is a great way to get business people to >agree with you - mostly because they don't know what they mean but are >afraid to admit it ;-) Once you leave the room, though, they won't even >bother to file it away (I believe the cliche "In one ear and out the >other" is appropriate here.) In the end, whether the project goes or not >will have very little to do with these words. > >I tried to sell a JMS project a few months ago and was very surprised at >how little weight words like "guaranteed messaging," and "transaction" >carried with that audience. In the end, the solution they chose ignored >these principles entirely, not because the business didn't need them, but >because I did an inadequate job of selling them. > >That is my experience, and, of course, yours may vary. > >Regards, >Adam >-----Original Message----- From: Jean-Jacques Dubray >[mailto:jjd@eigner.com] Sent: 17 June, 2002 15:44 >To: 'Adam Sroka'; 'ebXML List (E-mail)'; 'ebXML-dev List (E-mail)' >Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls > >I can assure you that it takes no more than 50 seconds to explain the >differences between ebXML and web services at any business people from CEO >to business analysts. You just have to pronounce a few words: >non-repudiation, guaranteed message processing by the receiving >application, in addition to guaranteed message delivery, transactional >protocol, !& > >I would argue that it takes much more than an hour to explain developers >why web services are not enough. > >My 2 cents and real life experience. > >JJ- > > > >-----Original Message----- From: Adam Sroka >[mailto:AdamS@rewardsplus.com] Sent: >Monday, June 17, 2002 3:23 PM To: ebXML List (E-mail); ebXML-dev List >(E-mail) Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls > >I agree with Scott's assessment below, but with one caveat: I don't think >that web services are that much easier to define or to describe to a >non-technical person than ebXML is. Rather, I think that web services have >been sold very well by some very influential salesmen. I have used the >term "web services" to sell projects within my own organization, because >it has become one of those buzzwords that causes the ears to perk up on >pointed haired bosses with titles that start with "C." However, in those >same conversations it has become apparent to me that if I asked for a >definition of "web services" from each of them the answers would all be >different and none would be right. > >In order for ebXML to have the same momentum that web services have it >would have to be sold by the right people, articles would have to appear >in all the boring business magazines that pointy haired bosses like to >read, and pointless metaphors would have to be created such that they >could be abused in boardrooms everywhere. I don't know that that will ever >happen. It is unfortunate, too, because ebXML would certainly do a lot >more for most organizations than web services would. Don't get me wrong, >web services are great, but in terms of the real value they add to a >business I don't think they're all they're cracked up to be. > >I have attempted to sell ebXML to business folks, on occasion, and the >best explanation that I was able to get across was something like: "It's >like EDI, but with XML and web services." Obviously this is a description >that anyone on this list (Myself included) could tear apart in a second, >but it makes sense to the audience, and is close enough to the truth to >keep me from feeling dirty ;-) The problem with this explanation is that >it is hard to see where the added value comes from. That, IMO, is why >ebXML is hard to sell, because in order to understand what makes it great >you have to get under the hood, and the moment you do the pointy haired >bosses start snoring. > >Thanks, Adam > >-----Original Message----- From: Beach, Scott >[mailto:Scott.Beach@goodrich.com] Sent: >14 June, 2002 13:25 To: 'colin adam'; 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jean-Jacques >Dubray' Cc: 'ebxml org'; 'ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org' Subject: RE: >[ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls > >The crux of the issue... IT managers "think" they understand the concept >of web services (whether true or not). Major mainstream vendors are >pushing web services(IBM,BEA,Microsoft, etc) as the future of web >interactions, not ebXML (not that the two play exactly the same role >anyway). I've yet to see anyone capable of explaining ebXML to an IT >executive without taking an hour and taking the conversation to such a >technical level that the executive becomes lost in the details and stops >caring. Does ebXML "define" more than web services? Absolutely. Does this >make it easier to sell as a concept? Absolutely not. > >ebXML simply lacks an "elevator speech" that is compelling to IT >executives. Web services doesn't suffer from this same marketing >paralysis. Another case where better technologically doesn't correlate to >more successful. > >-----Original Message----- From: colin adam >[mailto:colin.adam@webservices.org] >Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 1:17 PM To: 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jean-Jacques >Dubray' Cc: 'ebxml org'; ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org Subject: RE: >[ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls > >Duane, > >Interesting choice of title for a news posting. Please give me a >chance to respond before you jump to conclusions. > >Anyway, I think we misunderstand each other. I see web services vs >ebXML as asking this question... > >Does a person who wants to set up a b2b exchange think about a >web services based solution or an ebXML solution. I can see projects >where one of the other would be more suitable. But I would certainly >consider both in some circumstances. On the ground I think this is happening. > >But before you get annoyed at this statement please consider how we >both define web services. I use it as a term to refer to soap, wsdl, uddi >and all products broadly based on those protocols also. The ws-i.org I >would say is a "web services group" etc.. blue titan's mission >critical network products is a "web services product"... > >Generally since ebXML uses standards above the core three, I see them >as a separate entity. Connected but separate. I would call a ebxml >product an "ebXML product", not a "web services" product. This is just >my opinion and I believe the general community opinion. > > From what I see there seems to be a general split in the > industry between "web services" products (things that use the protocols > above) and those that use ebXML. A web services product is for example > an IDE that lets you create web services like VS .Net etc.. > >So, the wrongs and rights of a poll that uses these terms is >a discussion, but is that the discussion we are having here.. > >Or are we saying that on no basis can there ever be any >competition between an "web services" product or and "ebxml product"... > >Finally, please understand webservices.org is my own private website, run >off my own server, previously was a blog for my interests in soap but has >recently attracted some sponsors to help with running costs, and I have >no connections via jobs to any companies involved with web services and >have never worked for web services journal. > >I work hard on my site, and ask that you only take a few moments >to consider my views and perspective. (this goes to all the flames I >seem to have received this afternoon also). > >Regards colin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Duane Nickull > [mailto:duane@xmlglobal.com] > Sent: 14 June > 2002 17:38 > To: Jean-Jacques Dubray > Cc: 'ebxml org'; > ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org > Subject: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach > balls > > > Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote: > > > > Webservices.org is > running a poll about ebXML vs WS. Cast you opinion. > > > > > http://www.webservices.org/index.php/poll/result/27 > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > I can't believe someone actually started a poll > on this subject. > > I posted the following: > > This poll is seriously > flawed. Let me set the record straight on a few > thing. > > A Web > service is paramount to an interface to a programmatic function. > Since > most OO programming > today uses the concept of classes, most code that > exists has an > interface to send information our and > receive a > return type back from the class. Web Services abstracts the > > communication to a > programmatic class one step further by > communicating to the class by > using XML over SOAP (which is > really > HTTP with some XML extensions). > > ebXML, on the other hand, is an > infrastructure that facilitates > interoperability between electronic > > business users. ebXML will probably be largely implemented using OO > > techniques and methodologies. It is > therefore quite conceivable that > ebXML could easily be implemented as a > set of web services, > although > it is probably not logical to do so with the current state of > WS (WSDL) > given lack of thread tracking, > reliable messaging and > security. There is alos an added burden of > network lag for each call > to a logical > piece of work. > > This poll is seriously flawed and > will probably hurt both WS and ebXML. > I would urge it to be taken > down. > > Maybe replace it with a poll of gorilla hair vs. beach balls - > a similar > comparative study. > > Duane Nickull > > > -- > VP > Strategic Relations, > Technologies Evangelist > XML Global > Technologies > **************************** > ebXML software downloads > - http://www.xmlglobal.com/prod/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The > ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS. > To subscribe or unsubscribe from > this elist use the subscription > manager: > <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl> > >---------------------------------------------------------------- The >ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS. To subscribe or unsubscribe from >this elist use the subscription manager: ><http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl> > >---------------------------------------------------------------- The >ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS. To subscribe or unsubscribe from >this elist use the subscription manager: ><http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl> > --------------------------------------------------------------- Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting www.rawlinsecconsulting.com #### graycol.gif has been removed from this note on June 18 2002 by Martin W Sachs #### ecblank.gif has been removed from this note on June 18 2002 by Martin W Sachs #### mime001.gif has been removed from this note on June 18 2002 by Martin W Sachs #### mime002.gif has been removed from this note on June 18 2002 by Martin W Sachs

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