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Subject: Alexander [ebxml-dev] 1/2/2003: Microsoft Refuses to support ebXML

As to the Adoption Update, we plan another release this quarter as we
are finding out even more implementations, pilots and plans.

Thank you.

Monica J. Martin
Program Manager
Drake Certivo, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zachary Alexander [mailto:zack2@cris.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 8:03 AM
To: Fraser Goffin; ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] Microsoft Refuses to support ebXML


I would read the ebXML adoption document before you respond. It can be
at  http://www.ebxml.org/ebxml_jmt/index.htm#documents. <Fraser> While
of the industry is aligned behind SOAP, WSDL and UDDI, only Sun is
championing ebXML while Microsoft refuses to support it.</Fraser> I
strongly caution against this statement. IMHO, the current market is way
fragmented to make a blanket statement like this. I think that user
communities are behind ebXML and I would always put my money were the

There are technical concerns being voiced against each of the
that you have listed. SOAP, WSDL, UDDI are technologies that grew out a
to extend portal services because vendors were losing money. I would
that most of the software industry's marketing dollars are behind SOAP,
WSDL, UDDI.  But just because you build it doesn't mean they will come.
applications that are built still need to address the needs and concerns
the users. Anecdote: the EDIers still have there jobs, while the
lost theirs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Fraser Goffin [mailto:goffinf@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:03 AM
To: ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: [ebxml-dev] Microsoft Refuses to support ebXML


sorry for the attention grabbing and slightly imflamatory title but it
something that has been said to me a number of times over the past year

I am currently involved in a major project whose objective is to provide
very significant industry portal for accessing web services for a
market sector in the UK.

Part of the process is to define the web service interface specification
that will be used. In this context, ebXML MS (v2.0c) is one of the
for message 'packaging'.

I have just received the latest specification which rules out the use of
ebXML MS (although I think the author is a bit confused about what
specifications he's referring to), and sites a number of grounds for
this. I
have no particular issue with not using ebXML MS but I do have to admit
to a
degree or irritation about some of the comments made.

There are many things that I could say about this particular section of
document but I am somewhat sensitized to the particular debate and
personalities in this project and I need to be as objective and
dis-passionate as I can be (not easy). So, I would very much welcome
comments from you guys, since you have no special axe to grind about
implementation per se.

I want to be sure about that any comments I do make are factually
correct or
are based on sound assumptions. BTW - the text is quite short

I do have to respond very quickly to this (by 6th Jan !), so I would
it if you would copy your comments directly to my email address please


Many thanks


--- Text from ebXML section follows (its quite short) :-

ebXML arose from the EDI community in an effort to reduce costs EDI by
the Internet in place of expensive VANs.

ebXML is an international initiative established by UN/CEFACT (United
Nations Centre for Trade Facilitation) and OASIS (Organization for the
Advancement of Structured Information Standards).

ebXML is an open standard XML business specification that enables XML to
used in a consistent manner for the exchange of all electronic business
data. The phase 1 spec was published in May 2001.  Late in the drafting
cycle, ebXML adopted SOAP + attachments as it's transport.

EbXML has a business process information model (BPIM) and uses UML and
for process modelling.

The primary objective of ebXML is to lower the barrier to entry to
electronic business in order to facilitate trade, particularly with
to small businesses and developing nations.

The ebXML Transport Routing and Packaging specification released
2002, provided support for SOAP 1.1.

There is huge overlap between the technologies used by ebXML and SOAP,
and UDDI.  However the goals of ebXML are more ambitious based as it is
standardising business processes.  This may prove to be it's undoing as
companies tend to have different business processes and generally do not
change them without very good economic justification.

While most of the industry is aligned behind SOAP, WSDL and UDDI, only
is championing ebXML while Microsoft refuses to support it.

There is considerable momentum behind the SOAP, WSDL, UDDI camp and new
standards are emerging all the time.  For instance Business Process
Execution Language for Web Services (BPEL4WS) specification was released
recently with the aim of replacing IBM's Web Services Flow Language
and Microsoft's XLANG.

Another view of ebXML is that it is a top down approach whereas SOAP is
bottom up approach.  The consensus view seems to be that lightweight
approach adopted by SOAP is more likely to achieve critical mass across
industry and that it will quickly add the superior features of ebXML.
+ attachments is therefore the recommended approach for xxx.

The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months

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