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Subject: Re: TPA and ebXML Header question
Chris, I don't believe that pushing ordered messaging up to the business process level is the answer. Consider: If all the messages at the business process level are request-response, with only one message at a time, as in tpaML with its sequencing rules, then it doesn't matter what the messaging service does because the combination of request-response and one-at-a-time sequencing will preserve order within a conversation. The problem arises if the application involves a series of one-way messages, required to stay in order but with no business-level response. There is no way for the business process level to enforce ordering because the sender of a message doesn't know when it is safe to send the next one. The RM component of the messaging sequence can enforce ordering by blocking on each message in a logical channel until it receives the RM Acknowledgment. That's why I suggested that blocking in the RM function be controlled by a tag in the CPA and CPP. The blocking would be effective only for the particular TPA. Is this a realistic case? I don't know. Can anyone tell us? Regards, Marty ************************************************************************************* Martin W. Sachs IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P. O. B. 704 Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com ************************************************************************************* Christopher Ferris <chris.ferris@east.sun.com> on 10/04/2000 10:51:10 AM To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS cc: Scott Hinkelman/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Bob Haugen <linkage@interaccess.com>, David RR Webber <Gnosis_@compuserve.com>, Zvi Bruckner <zvi.b@sapiens.com>, "ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org" <ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org>, "ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org" <ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org> Subject: Re: TPA and ebXML Header question A minor tweak below, otherwise, I concur. Chris Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM wrote: > > Summing up what I think I have seen on MS ACKS (composite of opinion, not > necessarily consensus): > > MS ACKs are needed (this is essential to reliable messaging) > > The messaging service should not require blocking of a logical channel > until an MS ACK is received. > > Blocking may in any case be enforced by business-level responses. > > Partner Profile and Partner Agreement should specify whether blocking is ^^^^^^^ s/b sequencing IMHO. That is to say that at the business process level (not conversation) the sequence of messages might be enforced/required. > required. > Note: in my opinion, this tag would refer to the messaging service > ACKs, not the business process. Blocking at the business process level > would be specified in the business process model and manifest itself in > the PA in the response definitions and sequencing rules or whatever > equivalent we come up with. > > New point: For many applications, the latency effects of blocking at the > MS level would be substantially reduced if what we are calling a logical > channel is really a conversation. A good implementation would provide for > many concurrent conversations even within a single PA. Thus when the MS > blocks until receiving an ACK it would only affect the conversation of > which the message and ACK are a part. > > Regards, > Marty > > ************************************************************************************* > > Martin W. Sachs > IBM T. J. Watson Research Center > P. O. B. 704 > Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 > 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 > Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM > Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com > ************************************************************************************* > > Scott Hinkelman/Austin/IBM@IBMUS on 10/04/2000 10:17:01 AM > > To: Bob Haugen <linkage@interaccess.com> > cc: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, David RR Webber > <Gnosis_@compuserve.com>, Zvi Bruckner <zvi.b@sapiens.com>, > "ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org" <ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org>, > "ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org" <ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org> > Subject: RE: TPA and ebXML Header question > > It is fine if a specific business process utilizes business level acks. > A robust ms also needs ms level acks. > There is a need for both. > > Scott Hinkelman, Senior Software Engineer > XML Industry Enablement > IBM e-business Standards Strategy > 512-823-8097 (TL 793-8097) (Cell: 512-940-0519) > srh@us.ibm.com, Fax: 512-838-1074 > > Bob Haugen <linkage@interaccess.com> on 10/03/2000 07:14:05 PM > > To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, David RR Webber > <Gnosis_@compuserve.com> > cc: Zvi Bruckner <zvi.b@sapiens.com>, "ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org" > <ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org>, "ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org" > <ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org> > Subject: RE: TPA and ebXML Header question > > Marty and David, > > All of the business aspects of document processing, > including what kinds of acks are expected, are defined > by the Commercial Transaction patterns that are part > of the BP Collaboration Metamodel now (finally) > posted on the BP work page at: > http://www.ebxml.org/project_teams/business_process/wip/index.html > > (They are actually pretty much the same as RosettaNet, > so the POC vendors should know how to handle them.) > > -Bob Haugen > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM [SMTP:mwsachs@us.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 6:13 PM > To: David RR Webber > Cc: Zvi Bruckner; ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org; > ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org > Subject: Re: TPA and ebXML Header question > > DW, > > Isn't the confirm you are talking about part of the business process? It > seems to me that you want the business process to say "I got it" rather > than having the messaging service say "I was able to parse it OK and passed > it on to the business process but I it isn't my job to know if the business > process actually got it or fumbled the ball." > > Regards, > Marty > > ************************************************************************************* > > Martin W. Sachs > IBM T. J. Watson Research Center > P. O. B. 704 > Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 > 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 > Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM > Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com > ************************************************************************************* > > David RR Webber <Gnosis_@compuserve.com>@compuserve.com> on 10/03/2000 > 06:46:02 PM > > To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS > cc: Zvi Bruckner <zvi.b@sapiens.com>, ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org, > ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org > Subject: Re: TPA and ebXML Header question > > Message text written by Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM > >I believe there is a strong case for an optimistic > protocol: send only "checked not ok" and let the business-level response > imply that the message was delivered to the application with no error. > > Regards, > Marty< > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Marty - this will depend on the business workflow use case. Some > will require an explicit confirm - before proceeding to the next step. > > We should support both models - but default to > 'delivery accepted without confirm'. > > DW. -- _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Christopher Ferris - Enterprise Architect _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ Phone: 781-442-3063 or x23063 _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Email: chris.ferris@East.Sun.COM _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ Sun Microsystems, Mailstop: UBUR03-313 _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ 1 Network Drive Burlington, MA 01803-0903
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