Re: Expanding Reliable Messaging to meet the needs of IOTP

[Christopher Ferris <chris.ferris@east.sun.com>]

All,

I don't understand how this doesn't violate the layering.
It means that the MS has to track the behavior of the BP
which is IMHO out of the question.

The MS shouldn't care where a given message originates
and the BP shouldn't be involved in any MS-level optimizations.

This is an example of early optimization which is IMHO
a mistake, especially given that bandwidth is so much less
of a concern than it has been in the past, and the situation
is most definitely improving rapidly.

This also violates the KISS principle and in my mind over
complicates any implementation.

Cheers,

Chris


David Burdett wrote:
> 
> Henry
> 
> You're suggesting just what I had in mind except that I think the "bit" you
> mention could alternatively be held in a TPA.
> 
> David
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Lowe [mailto:hlowe@omg.org]
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 9:43 AM
> To: David Burdett
> Cc: 'Christopher Ferris'; 'mwsachs@us.ibm.com'; ebXML Transport (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: Expanding Reliable Messaging to meet the needs of IOTP
> 
> I must agree with David Brudett on this.
> 
> First, you must remember, that for the low level
> "I got the message" ACK, you cannot rely on the
> underlying transport -- in some cases, e.g., SMTP,
> there just isn't an ACK with the underlying transport,
> and in the multi-hop case, the underlying transport
> ACK isn't end-to-end anyway.  What this amounts to is,
> if an "I got the message" MS level ACK is important,
> the MS has to send it!!
> 
> With this in mind, what David is proposing, piggy-
> backing the low level and BP ACK (where it makes sense
> and is within reasonable timing constraints) is not
> only simple but also message efficient and it reduces
> the number of messages sent by 33% -- GOODness as it's
> messages, not bytes, which counts for efficiency.
> 
> A simple (one bit) mechanism can be defined to implement
> this in the MS protocol (well, if you use XML it will be
> more than one bit).  In the original message sent (request
> of a request/response pair) set a flag (one bit?) whose
> semantics is, if set, hold off on ACK until response from
> the BP is to be sent and piggy-back the two -- in the
> response header you will have a similar flag which says
> this is a piggy-backed ACK.  Done is 2 messages instead
> of 3.
> 
> This doesn't involve any layering violations (which I would
> guess is what Chris was thinking about) and involves a
> minimal increase of state preservation (one bit).
> 
> Best regards,
> Henry
> 
> PS: Note I'm shamelessly promoting multi-hop AGAIN.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> At 09:41 AM 08/25/2000 -0700, David Burdett wrote:
> >Chris
> >
> >Two main issues ...
> >
> >POINT ONE
> >I fundamentally disagree with you when you say ...
> >
> >>>> The business level response is just another message. It cannot be
> >interpreted as an ack without all kinds of kludgy whacked out code which
> the
> >MS must process to figure out which way is up.<<<
> >
> >This statement can ONLY be true IF THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO TECHNICALLY
> >SOLVE A PROBLEM which clearly is not true. I also assert that you cannot
> >PROVE that something can only be solved using "kludgy whacked out code"
> >since what would stop someone from solving the problem simply and
> elegantly.
> >Unless you can prove it is impossible to write elegant code then your
> >statement is fundamentally wrong.
> >
> >Anyway, to stop this getting in to a slanging match ;) What I will do (but
> >folks please give me time - I have a day job) is write up a solution which
> >solves the problem pretty elegantly based on a set of pseudo code that I
> >wrote to solve exactly this problem for IOTP.
> >
> >So Chris, I think the jury's out on this one.
> >
> >POINT TWO
> >Whilst I agree that we want to follow the KISS principle. We must support a
> >reasonable set of use cases, that represent how eCommerce is actually being
> >used today otherwise ebXML will not be adopted. Although synchronous
> >responses are needed for IOTP, they aren't the only cases. Commerce One's
> >"RoundTrip" and Ariba's "PunchOut" which both do similar things, both need
> a
> >synchronous messaging system.
> >
> >So, again, to stop this getting in to a slanging match, the solution is to
> >develop an alternative that proves that this is pretty simple to do. Again
> I
> >will do this, but I need the time.
> >
> >David
> >PS I am about to go into a day-long meeting and might not be able to
> >continue this conversation until next week.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Christopher Ferris [mailto:chris.ferris@east.sun.com]
> >Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 7:27 AM
> >To: David Burdett
> >Cc: 'mwsachs@us.ibm.com'; ebXML Transport (E-mail)
> >Subject: Re: Expanding Reliable Messaging to meet the needs of IOTP
> >
> >
> >I fundamentally disagree with this notion. The business level
> >response is just another message. It cannot be interpreted as
> >an ack without all kinds of kludgy whacked out code which the
> >MS must process to figure out which way is up.
> >
> >The MS should have a minimal set of functionality:
> >       send/receive a mesage, match to conversation, route to service
> >handler
> >       send/receive an MS-level ack or error, process accordingly
> >
> >which could be optimized with the windowing technique to:
> >       send/receive a window of messages, match to conversation, route to
> >service handler
> >       send/receive an MS-level ack or error, process accordingly
> >
> >Suggesting that a business message could double as an ack
> >would require all kinds of nasty logic at the
> >MS level which would impede performance to no end because each
> >receipt of a message would have to be analyzed to death.
> >Not only that but the design of the choreography would be overly
> complicated
> >IMO.
> >
> >The MS should be lean and mean with a minimum of boolean logic.
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >David Burdett wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>However I am concerned about relying on the business-level response as
> >> the confirmation of receipt of the message because business-level
> timeouts
> >> can be very long<<<
> >>
> >> I agree which is why I'm proposing that the business-level response is an
> >> *alternative* as some business processes can be very short and a separate
> >> acknowledgement unnecessary. We can easily include the way in which
> >reliable
> >> messaging receives its acknowledgements through in the TPA.
> >>
> >> I'm also not sure that if you are having a pseudo-real-time conversation
> >> that occurs in IOTP, that using a separate acknowledgement actually works
> >on
> >> HTTP (can anyone advise).
> >>
> >> David
> >> PS Sending to whole list since that is what I reckon Marty intended to
> do.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: mwsachs@us.ibm.com [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:45 AM
> >> To: David Burdett
> >> Subject: Re: Expanding Reliable Messaging to meet the needs of IOTP
> >>
> >> Dave,
> >>
> >> Your suggestion has merit.  However I am concerned about relying on the
> >> business-level response as the confirmation of receipt of the message
> >> because business-level timeouts can be very long (consider a request
> which
> >> initiates a human workflow or requires the requestee to communicate with
> a
> >> subcontractor first).  Waiting that long to discover than the request was
> >> dropped by the network seems undesirable. However many of the transports
> >> that will be used below the messaging service already have acks
> prescribed
> >> in their protocols.  If the implementation persists the message before
> >> sending the transport-level ACK, we should be covered without an extra
> >> layer of function.
> >>
> >> One case where the existing proposal seems to make sense is with SMTP
> >since
> >> SMTP has no end to end acknowledgment on a multihop path.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Marty
> >>
> >>
> >***************************************************************************
> *
> >> *********
> >>
> >> Martin W. Sachs
> >> IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
> >> P. O. B. 704
> >> Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
> >> 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
> >> Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
> >> Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
> >>
> >***************************************************************************
> *
> >> *********
> >>
> >> David Burdett <david.burdett@commerceone.com> on 08/21/2000 11:30:37 AM
> >>
> >> To:   "ebXML Transport (E-mail)" <ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org>
> >> cc:
> >> Subject:  Expanding Reliable Messaging to meet the needs of IOTP
> >>
> >> Folks
> >>
> >> I suggest that reliable messaging should be expanded, so that, instead of
> >> sending an ack, to imply that the message has been received, an
> >alternative
> >> would be to use the next "normal" message received instead.
> >>
> >> The reason I suggest this is because this is how the Internet Open
> Trading
> >> Protocol (RFC 2801) does it and I'm not sure that the current Reliable
> >> Messaging spec will support this method of working. In outline what
> >happens
> >> is illustrated by the following:
> >>
> >> 1. Customer sends a "Payment Request" message to a Payment Handler (e.g.
> a
> >> bank) - using a HTTP Post
> >> 2. The Payment Handler processes the Payment Request and sends a "Payment
> >> Response" message on the HTTP Response
> >> 3. If the Payment Response is not received in time, a timeout occurs and
> >> the
> >> Customer resends the Payment Request
> >> 4. If the Payment Handler receives a duplicate Payment Request, then they
> >> resend the Payment Response that they sent previously, but otherwise
> >> ignores
> >> it
> >>
> >> No separate acknowledgement message is needed since the receipt of the
> >> Payment Response by the Customer implies that the Payment Request has
> been
> >> received.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> Product Management, CommerceOne
> >> 4400 Rosewood Drive 3rd Fl, Bldg 4, Pleasanton, CA 94588, USA
> >> Tel: +1 (925) 520 4422 (also voicemail); Pager: +1 (888) 936 9599
> >> mailto:david.burdett@commerceone.com; Web: http://www.commerceone.com
> >
> >--
> >    _/_/_/_/ _/    _/ _/    _/ Christopher Ferris - Enterprise Architect
> >   _/       _/    _/ _/_/  _/  Phone: 781-442-3063 or x23063
> >  _/_/_/_/ _/    _/ _/ _/ _/   Email: chris.ferris@East.Sun.COM
> >       _/ _/    _/ _/  _/_/    Sun Microsystems,  Mailstop: UBUR03-313
> >_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/  _/    _/     1 Network Drive Burlington, MA 01803-0903

-- 
    _/_/_/_/ _/    _/ _/    _/ Christopher Ferris - Enterprise Architect
   _/       _/    _/ _/_/  _/  Phone: 781-442-3063 or x23063
  _/_/_/_/ _/    _/ _/ _/ _/   Email: chris.ferris@East.Sun.COM
       _/ _/    _/ _/  _/_/    Sun Microsystems,  Mailstop: UBUR03-313
_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/  _/    _/     1 Network Drive Burlington, MA 01803-0903