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Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads (compression)
Scott,
I agree. That was what I was trying to say, using one wrong word. For the
wire format to support compression, things have to be defined in the
Message Service specification.
Regards,
Marty
*************************************************************************************
Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
*************************************************************************************
Scott Hinkelman/Austin/IBM@IBMUS on 01/03/2001 10:25:01 AM
To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
cc: John Ibbotson/UK/IBM@IBMGB, ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org,
ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads (compression)
Marty,
The only thing that can be clearly suggested is that the the wire format
support compression,
since there is no formal definition of what a MSH is in ebXML.
Scott Hinkelman, Senior Software Engineer
XML Industry Enablement
IBM e-business Standards Strategy
512-823-8097 (TL 793-8097) (Cell: 512-940-0519)
srh@us.ibm.com, Fax: 512-838-1074
Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS on 01/03/2001 09:14:04 AM
To: John Ibbotson/UK/IBM@IBMGB
cc: ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org, ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads (compression)
I never suggested that the MSH should do any compressing. I only suggested
that the MSH provide a place in the packaging information to indicate that
a payload is compressed. It would be up to the sending application to
indicate to the MSH that a payload is compressed. This is no different
than some of the other information that the messaging service conveys.
Regards,
Marty
*************************************************************************************
Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
*************************************************************************************
john_ibbotson@uk.ibm.com on 01/03/2001 09:52:55 AM
To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
cc: ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org, ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads (compression)
I don't believe it is the job of the MSH to compress the payload. This only
adds to the complexity of the MSH. Certainly, the CPP can include
information on compression schemes it supports but compression of the
payload should be the job of the application which then passes the
compressed stream to the MSH for enveloping. Further compression may occur
at the transport layer but again, that isn't the job of the MSH.
John
XML Technology and Messaging,
IBM UK Ltd, Hursley Park,
Winchester, SO21 2JN
Tel: (work) +44 (0)1962 815188 (home) +44 (0)1722 781271
Fax: +44 (0)1962 816898
Notes Id: John Ibbotson/UK/IBM
email: john_ibbotson@uk.ibm.com
Martin W Sachs <mwsachs@us.ibm.com> on 01/03/2001 02:42:29 PM
Please respond to Martin W Sachs <mwsachs@us.ibm.com>
To: "Hudson, Darren" <dhudson@spaceworks.com>
cc: "'Welsh, David'" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>,
"'rawlins@metronet.com'" <rawlins@metronet.com>,
ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org, "Bob Haugen (E-mail)"
<linkage@interaccess.com>, ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads (compression)
Re-sending posting because it was rejected because of an obscene first
line. (It is forbidden to mention the name of a list in the first line).
Regards,
Marty
*************************************************************************************
Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
*************************************************************************************
---------------------- Forwarded by Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM on 01/03/2001
09:40 AM ---------------------------
Martin W Sachs
01/03/2001 09:12 AM
To: "Hudson, Darren" <dhudson@spaceworks.com>
cc: "'Welsh, David'" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>,
"'rawlins@metronet.com'" <rawlins@metronet.com>,
ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org, "Bob Haugen (E-mail)"
<linkage@interaccess.com>, ebxml-transport@lists.ebxml.org
From: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads (compression) (Document
link: Martin W. Sachs)
(note that I have added ebxml-transport to the cc list).
Since no one has mentioned transformations other than compression, I
suggest we confine his discussion to compression for now.
To support compression, we need the following:
In the CPP and CPA
Indication that a party uses business document compression. This
should be able to be specified both per message definition and for
each party's Service (set of business transaction definitions) as a
whole. At a minimum the CPP/CPA would have to state that compression
is (or may be) used and the algorithm. If someone can provide a
specific suggestion for a compression definition, I will add it to the
list of things to be done in the next iteration of the CPP-CPA
specification.
In the Messaging Service specification
The packaging information should include an indicator of whether a
payload is compressed (and the algorithm?). This allows for carrying
multiple payload documents, some, but not all, of which are
compressed.
Regards,
Marty
*************************************************************************************
Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
*************************************************************************************
"Hudson, Darren" <dhudson@spaceworks.com> on 01/03/2001 04:40:46 AM
To: "'Welsh, David'" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>,
"'rawlins@metronet.com'" <rawlins@metronet.com>,
ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org
cc: "Bob Haugen (E-mail)" <linkage@interaccess.com>
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads
I would also like to add to this.
In Europe we do not have the luxury of masses of bandwidth so I am in full
agreement on compressing payloads.
For example, some SME's are connected via a VAN and are charged by bytes,
they are going to be upset to find out how fat XML is compared to EDI.
There is a great need for EDI and XML to work in harmony and compression is
going to greatly help in this.
Thanks,
Darren Hudson
-----Original Message-----
From: Welsh, David [mailto:David.Welsh@nordstrom.com]
Sent: 02 January 2001 23:54
To: 'rawlins@metronet.com'; ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org
Cc: Bob Haugen (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Applying transformations to Payloads
Well if this helps, maybe I can introduce myself.
I am the e-Fulfillment Director for http://www.nordstrom.com .
Nordstrom.com, as a business, are the premier internet business site and
catalog business for apparel in the domestic US.
You can read more about our business operations and approach to business at
such sites as
http://www.redherring.com/industries/2000/1017/ind-shoptalk101700.html with
articles like :
Shop Talk: Nordstrom.com says execute, don't innovate
By Ken Yamada
Redherring.com, October 17, 2000
In addition, this past weekend as a necessary business function, I just
saved hour$$ of people and data comm processing time to do a full inventory
syncronization (because I data compressed XML data payloads) between a
remote warehouse in Chicago and my main ERP system in Seattle, where every
few minutes of every day for months now we have been getting XML based
inventory adjustments and send PO's,.... again all in XML.
I have a business need, and we choose not to do EDI.
Thanks
David Welsh
Director e-Fulfillment
Norstrom.com
(206) 215-7293
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Rawlins [mailto:rawlins@metronet.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:13 PM
> To: ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org
> Subject: Re: Applying transformations to Payloads
>
>
> I think I would want to hear directly from someone who has a
> business need for compression before we
> went to any trouble to support it. My view on this is that
> if someone is really concerned about data
> volumes and compression, they won't be using XML anyway -
> they'll probably be using traditional EDI with
> compression on top of it.
>
> "Welsh, David" wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the attention. I certainly don't want to "throw
> a curve at this
> > late stage" tot he group.
> > Is 'transforms' and 'encoding' the same thing ?
> >
> > Given there's several orders of magnitude of increased data
> (text) volume
> > size usually (well in my experience) involved (see attached
> example from the
> > BP group of a business process document, and you could say
> it's not that
> > much bigger but multiply the extra overhead by 10's of
> thousands of orders
> > and ...), and I also suspect given most people (especially
> the SME's won't
> > have the luxury of T1, DSL or high speed access to an ISP),
> I was hoping
> > there'd be a way to allow for compressed / non-compressed
> payloads to be
> > indicated.
> >
> > Not everyone probably could support a compressed payload,
> and to support
> > compression probably could be something extra in a normal
> exhange; but if
> > trading partners could go the extra step and support
> compression then it
> > seems reasonable that there'd be some realistic chance of
> company's being
> > more efficient; time to process, time to transmit, cost of
> services, .. !
> >
> > Thanks again
> > Dave Welsh
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: christopher ferris [mailto:chris.ferris@east.sun.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:43 AM
> > > To: Burdett, David
> > > Cc: ebxml-tp@lists.ebxml.org; 'Welsh, David'
> > > Subject: Re: Applying transformations to Payloads
> > >
> > >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Not transforms per se, but there is an encoding element
> > > that theoretically could be used.
> > >
> > > It might be more flexible to simply allow for some
> > > set of transforms to be defined as they have done for
> > > XMLDSIG which can be extended to arbitrary xslt transforms
> > > specified by the user/programmer.
> > >
> > > Of course, this will need to be discussed after Marty has a draft
> > > published, hopefully, sometime very soon!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > "Burdett, David" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've been exchanging emails with David Welsh at Nordstrom
> > > about the idea of
> > > > compressing data inside the payload of an ebXML message.
> > > However before you
> > > > could do this, it would be useful if information on the
> > > ability to accept
> > > > this (or any other) type of transformation in the payload
> > > was recorded in
> > > > the CPP/CPA.
> > > >
> > > > Is there a facility to support this in the CPP/CPA
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > Product Management, Commerce One
> > > > 4400 Rosewood Drive, Pleasanton, CA 94588, USA
> > > > Tel: +1 (925) 520 4422 (also voicemail); Pager: +1
> (888) 936 9599
> > > > mailto:david.burdett@commerceone.com; Web:
> > > http://www.commerceone.com
> > >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >
> > Subject: DTD & Sample - Specification Schema for review
> > Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 11:44:25 -0700
> > From: Cory Casanave <cory-c@dataaccess.com>
> > Reply-To: Karsten Riemer <Karsten.Riemer@East.Sun.COM>
> > To: 'Karsten Riemer ' <Karsten.Riemer@East.Sun.COM>,
> > "'ebxml-bp@lists.ebxml.org '" <ebxml-bp@lists.ebxml.org>,
> > "'ebxml-core@lists.ebxml.org '" <ebxml-core@lists.ebxml.org>
> >
> > <<ebXmlSpecifcationSample090.xml>>
> <<ebXmlSpecificationDTD090.dtd>>
> > Enclosed is the DTD which matches the ebXml Specification
> Schema 0.90 and a
> > sample of it's use. Note that we do not have an
> > Automated generator or parser for this yet so it is done by
> hand and could
> > have errors. It is valid XML.
> >
> > The following comments are derived from the process of
> making the sample and
> > schema;
> >
> > 1. Important! We must define a set of "core" types. To
> make the example, I
> > assumed the following:
> > Integer, String (Simple), Text (IE
> HTML), Float,
> > Decimal, Date, Time,
> > DateTime, Currency, Duration.
> > Other built-in types may be added by
> core components
> >
> > 2. There is no apparent difference between "document" (representing
> > "Structured Document") and "aggregate", other than one can
> be in a document
> > set and one can not - so why have the distinction? (The
> same is true for
> > document-set, but some people seem to Really want this).
> >
> > 3. Having to define document sets all the time is annoying. Perhaps
> > reference to a document type in a business transaction can
> imply a document
> > set.
> >
> > 4. It is not clear if the user can make new "Basic
> Information Entities" or
> > if this is just for built-in types. It is not currently in the DTD.
> >
> > 5. There is no way, as there is in XML, to define reusable
> attribute types.
> >
> > 6. There are some times I would have wanted to put the
> delivery attributes o
> > the data type as well as the attribute.
> >
> > 7. Document set should inherit from information entity so
> it can be used in
> > attributes, as is done in the example.
> >
> > 8. I assume we want to be able to document models, I added
> this to the DTD
> > but it is not in the model.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Karsten Riemer
> > To: ebxml-bp@lists.ebxml.org; ebxml-core@lists.ebxml.org
> > Sent: 12/30/00 7:09 PM
> > Subject: Specification Schema for review
> >
> > Hi,
> > attached is the BP Specification Schema.
> > It will be discussed in this coming Tuesday's metamodel
> meeting and if
> > no
> > major issues are raised it will be submitted to QR on
> Wednesday 1/3. It
> > will
> > be accompanied by a DTD and a set of patterns. Paul, please
> send call
> > info for
> > Tuesday's meeting to BP and Core lists.
> >
> > thanks,
> > -karsten
> > <<WinZip>>
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > Name:
> ebXmlSpecifcationSample090.xml
> > ebXmlSpecifcationSample090.xml Type: XML Document (text/xml)
> > Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
> >
> > Name:
> ebXmlSpecificationDTD090.dtd
> > ebXmlSpecificationDTD090.dtd Type: DTD File
> (application/x-unknown-content-type-dtd_auto_file)
> > Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
>
> --
> Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
> http://www.metronet.com/~rawlins/
>
>
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