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Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Is CC really a setofLegos?

Dear Betty and William,

first of all to be honest I hate legos too, but as an analogy they are good
since almost everybody understands what legos are.

Secondly, I agree with William that building messages solely from core
components would be a time-consuming task and therefore you surely need
patterns and templates to start with. The thing I thought that ebXML was
offering was the way to define the needed messages starting from the
business point of view, not the message point of view. A SME company could
easily extract the existing BP patterns, use them for defining its processes
as well as the business transactions. Based on the transactions, the SME
could define the documents needed for e-business exploiting here the core
components. In the real world the SME would probably use as a basis some of
the existing document definitions already implemented by that industry. My
point is that the actual outcome is about the same as in EDIFACT world (i.e.
message definitions according to standards), but the way to come to this
result is different. The business only adapts those core components they
need, they don't have to go through an entire UNSM like PO.

Thirdly, I also agree with Betty; if the ebXML fails in delivering easy to
use and re-usable core components + guidelines and methodologies for
defining business processes + BP patterns and models etc. then the
organisations will go elsewhere as in many cases they already have.

best regards,

Eija Aspelin
Oy EDI Management Finland Ltd
P.O. Box 166 (Sinikalliontie 10, 4th floor)
02631 Espoo, Finland
tel: +358-9-4391 0016
mobile: +358-400-601190
fax: +358-9-43910043

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Betty Harvey [mailto:ebxml@eccnet.eccnet.com]
> Sent: 29. huhtikuuta 2001 5:00
> To: William J. Kammerer
> Cc: ebXML Core
> Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Is CC really a
> set ofLegos?
> William:
> 	Truth be known - I have always disliked Legos.  Kids never
> put them away, they are painful on bare feet, and they can destroy
> a vacuum cleaner.  It may be better to use the analogy of cinder
> blocks.  They are ugly, require cement to put them together but
> they last for centuries with very little care.
> 	I have been working on a PHP, Apache, MySQL problem all
> day so my mood isn't too great - so I apologize in advance if
> it shows |-).
> 	I don't see what is so hard.  The problem seems relatively
> easy to me.  For example, today I was ordering flowers for a friend
> whose mother had died.  Every time you order something on-line,
> individual or SME, it doesn't matter, you are required to fill
> out the same information over and over again.  Why can't I send
> them a VCard with the information they need.  The IETF had
> developed an IETF DTD for VCard then rescinded it.  However,
> I have included the VCard DTD, with modifications, in several
> DTDs that I have developed for companies who are just establishing
> their internet-based products.
> 	When I have used Vcard, it is just a small component
> of the bigger product.  For example, one DTD has over 900
> elements - (don't ask) but the VCard is just a very small
> component.  However, it is a component that can be used
> universally and consistently with everyone who understands
> VCard.
> 	In another DTD where where I included Vcard , we were
> using using GML (Geography Markup Language) and global
> positioning data for scientist who were gathering live
> environmental data from the field and transmitting it to
> a local repository.
> 	My point is that ebXML does not know at this
> juncture (elder Bush's word) how the core components will
> be used because they are not aware of all the businesses
> that will use them.  Yes, they are aware of the EDI world,
> but remember that only 150,000 companies in North America
> are using EDI and there are over 6 millions companies
> (ducking to avoid arrows).
> 	If core components can establish building blocks
> (legos or cinder blocks) that can be used universally, they
> will have created a real benefit to global e-business.
> Businesses do more than PO's.  I have been in business
> 6 years and have created 1 PO and have received 2 so
> a PO is not big on my list of wants.  Let's face it
> PO's are easy - contracts are not!   Including the capability
> to create a PO from inside an IETM (Interactive Electronic
> Technical Manual) is not!  It is the building blocks that
> will facilitate the PO from an IETM (don't you love acronyms)
> and ebusines.
> 	Core components should be one of the building blocks
> (not all) for establishing the capability for doing global
> ecommerce.  Core components, by themselves, will never equal
> a whole!  ebXML and myself cannot envision how core components
> will be used if they are created correctly, successfully and
> easy to use, organizations will go elsewhere.   "Field of
> Dreams" the voice said "if you build it they will come".  If Keven
> Costner has built a swimming pool instead of a baseball field
> they would have stayed in the corn field!
> Betty
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, William J. Kammerer wrote:
> > I just got through checking out my daughter's room to see
> if she picked
> > it up, and something in it reminded me of Eija Aspelin's and Betty
> > Harvey's analogy of reusable core components to Lego blocks.  Well,
> > specifically, it *was* Lego blocks.  All over the floor.
> In shoe boxes.
> > On the bed.
> >
> > Unless you have a tremendous amount of creativity or time, it's nigh
> > impossible to come up with something interesting or useful (well,
> > anything my little precious makes is interesting and
> useful) from these
> > "core components."  The cute little bunny pushing the
> vegetable cart she
> > got for Easter has disintegrated into individual Legos -
> and without the
> > picture on the original package, never to be recombined
> again.  Entropy
> > in action.
> >
> > Folks will not easily be able to design messages from core
> components
> > without the use of templates or patterns.  Most
> professional programmers
> > have a really tough time taking objects and making them
> work together in
> > a program, so I suspect building intelligible messages from
> the ground
> > up using core components will be a formidable task.
> >
> > So be prepared to devise the scaffolding (i.e., message
> structure) for
> > core components.  In other words, I predict we're going to
> end up with
> > POs, Invoices, Shipment Advices, etc.
> >
> > William J. Kammerer
> > 4950 Blazer Pkwy.
> > Dublin, OH USA 43017-3305
> > +1 614 791-1600
> >
> > Visit FORESIGHT Corp. at http://www.foresightcorp.com/
> > "accelerating time-to-trade"
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from this elist send a message with the single word
> > "unsubscribe" in the body to: ebxml-core-request@lists.ebxml.org
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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