Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ... RATHOLE!

[Mike Rawlins <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>]

RAT HOLE ALERT - Here I go diving down...

As I said, David, get real.  The first URL you pointed to says:

"This new design takes integration to a new level and saves significant 
space, cost, weight, and assembly time for designers of embedded 
systems. PROMETHEUS is an ultra-integrated, ultra-rugged, 
ultra-efficient design ready for your industrial and commercial 
application."

The second one has a similar write up.

Neither says anything about an *embedded* ("on a chip") web server like 
Apache.


David Lyon wrote:

>Hi Mike,
>
>So you're trying to tell me that ebXML could never run on the following
>hardware:
>
>http://www.diamondsystems.com/products/prometheus
>
>or
>
>http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/products/rcm2200/index.html
>
>Is there some sort of incompatability ? or something that I don't know
>about.
>
>These devices already run web servers quite fine so I'm interested to know
>why ebXML couldn't be tacked on them as well.
>
>David
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>
>To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...
>
>
>>David,
>>
>>While we agree about SME requirements, I think your remedy is a bit on
>>the edge of fantasy.  ebXML on a chip?   This reminds me of when people
>>were afraid that Microsoft was going to build EDI into Windoze.   I can
>>see an XML parser on a chip a lot sooner than ebXML, and I don't expect
>>to see a W3C schema validating parser on a chip any time soon.   We
>>don't even have fully compliant parsers in software yet!
>>
>>Get real ;^)
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>David Lyon wrote:
>>
>>>Mike,
>>>
>>>You're absolutely right.
>>>
>>>>The main problem is not necessarily with the SME, but with
>>>>the tools that are available to them.  Most would accommodate a big
>>>>customer's request to do business electronically if it was cost
>>>>effective for them to do so.
>>>>
>>>That's why I say that somebody has to go to Asia and produce ebXML on a
>>>chip.
>>>
>>>SMEs will be able to then afford the product. And you will be able to get
>>>
>an
>
>>>ROI providing that you can make it work.
>>>
>>>David Lyon
>>>Product Manager
>>>www.globaltradedesk.com
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Mike Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>
>>>To: "Christopher Harvey" <ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg>
>>>Cc: "'Todd Boyle'" <tboyle@rosehill.net>; <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>;
>>><ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:15 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Excuse me, but I can't help but violently disagree with most of this
>>>>sentiment!  The main problem is not necessarily with the SME, but with
>>>>the tools that are available to them.  Most would accommodate a big
>>>>customer's request to do business electronically if it was cost
>>>>effective for them to do so.  In the current way of doing things (and
>>>>I'm afraid how ebXML may turn out the same way) it costs them more to do
>>>>business electronically than by other means.  And you blame *them* for
>>>>that?  That's exactly how the big guys work.  If they can't show an ROI
>>>>on something, they won't do it.
>>>>
>>>>Your thinking reflects a big stick approach which I am increasingly
>>>>seeing, with large buyers imposing financial penalties of all sorts upon
>>>>their suppliers in force a shift of costs from the customer to the
>>>>supplier.  Does this produce efficiencies?  In some cases yet, but as
>>>>often as not it forces the supplier to raise their prices so that they
>>>>can recover costs and still make a profit.  This is *not* a very good
>>>>
>>>model.
>>>
>>>>We need better solutions, not bigger sticks...
>>>>
>>>>Christopher Harvey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Rachel,
>>>>>
>>>>>>What still amazes me is the assumption (apparently) on the part of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>large
>>>>>
>>>>>>enterprise is that if they get their needs meet the small guys will
>>>>>>
>>>stand
>>>
>>>>>>up, salute and march on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Very true but... I am increasingly of the opinion that unless we use
>>>>>
>the
>
>>>>>power of the big guys down onto the SMEs, the latter will not bother to
>>>>>
>>>do
>>>
>>>>>anything.
>>>>>
>>>>>SMEs do not have much of a collective voice except the scream that will
>>>>>
>>>come
>>>
>>>>>when they big guys hit them were it hurts. So, can we blame the big
>>>>>
>guys
>
>>>for
>>>
>>>>>"taking charge"?
>>>>>
>>>>>As you may gather, my patience with (some... most) SMEs is wearing
>>>>>
>thin.
>
>>>The
>>>
>>>>>average SME will ignore change until it is forced otherwise (at least
>>>>>
>in
>
>>>>>this part of the world). We are slowly getting more and more of the big
>>>>>corporations telling our SMEs: "Do it electronically, or lose the
>>>>>
>>>business".
>>>
>>>>>Good, about bl**dy time.
>>>>>
>>>>>The SMEs have only themselves to blame. I am new to ebXML but my 0.02
>>>>>
>>>cents
>>>
>>>>>worth is to ask all involved to understand the needs of the SMEs but to
>>>>>
>>>use
>>>
>>>>>the big guys to force change.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards
>>>>>Chris Harvey
>>>>>Zara Technology Pte Ltd
>>>>>Singapore
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Rachel Foerster" <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>
>>>>>To: "'Christopher Harvey'" <ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg>; "'Todd
>>>>>
>>>Boyle'"
>>>
>>>>><tboyle@rosehill.net>
>>>>>Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
>>>>>Sent: 23 April 2002 01:17
>>>>>Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components
>>>>>
>...
>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Chris,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Your comments are on the mark! I've personally been a bit dismayed
>>>>>>
>over
>
>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>>life history of the ebXML initiative that what once started out to
>>>>>>
>have
>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>focus on "inclusion" of the SME and their needs has instead, at least
>>>>>>
>in
>
>>>>>my
>>>>>
>>>>>>viewpoint, clearly moved over into the domain of the large enterprise
>>>>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>>what they need/want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What still amazes me is the assumption (apparently) on the part of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>large
>>>>>
>>>>>>enterprise is that if they get their needs meet the small guys will
>>>>>>
>>>stand
>>>
>>>>>>up, salute and march on. If the SME's needs are not truly addressed
>>>>>>
>>>here,
>>>
>>>>>as
>>>>>
>>>>>>I said during one of my ebXML Marketing Work Group updates to the
>>>>>>
>ebXML
>
>>>>>>plenary, my personal opinion is that the ebXML effort will have
>>>>>>
>failed.
>
>>>>>>Rachel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: Christopher Harvey [mailto:ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg]
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 9:09 PM
>>>>>>To: Todd Boyle
>>>>>>Cc: ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components
>>>>>>...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Todd,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Extremely well put. It's somehow comforting to know that SMEs in the
>>>>>>
>US
>
>>>>>have
>>>>>
>>>>>>the same 'mentality' as SMEs here in Asia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The big gap to be bridged is in getting SMEs to understand that there
>>>>>>
>is
>
>>>a
>>>
>>>>>>direct financial benefit to be had; opposing that is their belief that
>>>>>>
>>>>>their
>>>>>
>>>>>>data must remain 'secret' (as it had for generations - a necessity
>>>>>>
>when
>
>>>>>more
>>>>>
>>>>>>than one set of books have been historically kept).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rachel is absolutely correct when she says: It's a business imperative
>>>>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>>necessary now and into the future to be able to exchange unambiguous
>>>>>>
>>>data.
>>>
>>>>>>As a tech company, we know that. Our government knows that. But
>>>>>>
>getting
>
>>>>>SMEs
>>>>>
>>>>>>to understand that is a whole different uphill struggle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>ebXML is an excellent initiative but... the real SMEs, the mass-market
>>>>>>
>>>>>small
>>>>>
>>>>>>ones, with 50 or usually less, employees - which make up the vast
>>>>>>
>>>majority
>>>
>>>>>>of companies - have a mindset that you would not believe unless you
>>>>>>
>have
>
>>>>>>been exposed to it. For the success of ebXML, and e-commerce in
>>>>>>
>general,
>
>>>>>it
>>>>>
>>>>>>is imperative that all involved with these important initiatives have
>>>>>>
>a
>
>>>>>good
>>>>>
>>>>>>grasp of the SME mindset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I hope this is not drifting off topic but it is vital that XML
>>>>>>
>potential
>
>>>>>>does not become solely the domain of the big players...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards
>>>>>>Chris Harvey
>>>>>>Zara Technology Pte Ltd
>>>>>>Singapore
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Todd Boyle" <tboyle@rosehill.net>
>>>>>>To: <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>
>>>>>>Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
>>>>>>Sent: 22 April 2002 07:56
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components
>>>>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>>>>>At 09:36 AM 4/21/02, Rachel Foerster wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's a business imperative and necessary now and into the future
>>>>>>>>to be able to exchange unambiguous data. And personally I believe
>>>>>>>>
>the
>
>>>>>>>>future will be **not** the shipping off to a business partner data
>>>>>>>>
>or
>
>>>>>>>>documents, etc. but providing real time controlled access to the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>necessary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>information transparently between enterprises so that
>>>>>>>>
>cross-enterprise
>
>>>>>>>>business processes can execute to the desired outcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As more and more small businesses have always-on connections
>>>>>>>to the internet, sooner or later it will dawn on them to expose at
>>>>>>>least some limited views or query interfaces to their customers
>>>>>>>and suppliers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Small businesses often have only one person performing all roles
>>>>>>>that interface a particular customer or supplier, and accordingly
>>>>>>>have no need for business process management. The cost of updating
>>>>>>>all the statuses and stages of a BP exceed their benefit.  Cell
>>>>>>>
>phones,
>
>>>>>>>headsets, and the collapse of long distance have made it even cheaper
>>>>>>>to handle exceptions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't wish to diminish the usefulness of ebXML BP in any way, for
>>>>>>>Enterprise or other value chains where they are appropriate!  But
>>>>>>>I think the exchange of documents remains the best potential
>>>>>>>way to get ebXML in the door of SMEs.  And, once they gain some
>>>>>>>familiarity with it, they will be much closer to supply chain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>integration
>>>>>
>>>>>>>or other BP scenarios.  Here is one fictitious dialog for
>>>>>>>your entertainment
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Todd Boyle CPA
>>>>>>>AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let's take a break, and get beat up by a small busieness owner....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q:  "Why should I allow my customer or supplier to see the purchase
>>>>>>>and sale data in *my* accounting system?? "
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A: "you already do.  Whenever you send a PO or an invoice. "
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q:  Yeah but why should I allow them to see their Account Receivable
>>>>>>>page, or Account Payable, in *my* system?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A:  You already do, whenever you send them a statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yeah, but I never send statements until they have been reviewed
>>>>>>>at the end of the month and the bank account is reconciled to find
>>>>>>>all the mistakes in our posting payments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Ok then why don't you expose a view of the invoices now,
>>>>>>>and expose the reviewed statements at the end of the month?
>>>>>>>You don't have to change your procedures at all.  Too bad your bank
>>>>>>>is so unhelpful http://www.gldialtone.com/transaction04.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Well why should I do this, what's the payoff for me?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Some of your customers might pay you sooner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but all my good customers already pay me on time,
>>>>>>>and my bad customers, I don't think they have the intelligence
>>>>>>>to use a computer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Maybe when they can login and see their account they will
>>>>>>>understand it better.  Maybe they are paying their other suppliers
>>>>>>>sooner than they are paying you. Why don't you try emailing them
>>>>>>>their statements more often.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but what are you trying to sell me?  You're just trying
>>>>>>>to capture me into a central server or single-vendor software.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Sharing views *directly* with trading partners is the exact
>>>>>>>opposite of being trapped in a portal model.  Today, you are
>>>>>>>trapped in two separate portal models:  first, you are trapped in
>>>>>>>your local software with no electronic interface...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but what am I supposed to "Interface" with?  There is
>>>>>>>no standard. Nobody else has any "Interface" either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Do you vote?
>>>>>>>Q.  Yes.
>>>>>>>A.  Do you make charitable contributions?
>>>>>>>Q.  Yes.
>>>>>>>A.  How much did you contribute last year?
>>>>>>>Q.  None of your business.
>>>>>>>A.  Transaction integration helps the planet and it doesn't
>>>>>>>        cost you anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  What do you mean??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  You're cutting down the paper consumption, getting
>>>>>>>vehicles off the road, cutting trips to banks and post offices.
>>>>>>>You're saving labor. People can do more useful things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but what do you mean, "Free"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Do you already do accounting work, posting all your sales
>>>>>>>and purchases?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Then exposing the data to the trading partner costs effectively
>>>>>>>nothing. You don't have to compose any new documents. In fact,
>>>>>>>the trading partner can freeload off your data entry work.  They
>>>>>>>simply click "OK" to suck your data into their computer and post it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Yes.  But where is the software to do this??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A. There are modules in the open source ebXML projects, and in
>>>>>>>the VARs and developer communities of most of the accounting
>>>>>>>platforms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Why that's ridiculous.  You're bullsh*itting me.   Integration
>>>>>>>always costs megabucks.   I have been burned many times in
>>>>>>>the past by computer consultants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  In the past, the N-squared problem required a separate
>>>>>>>software solution for every combination of thousands of software
>>>>>>>products, that is, *millions* of adapters to connect with each other.
>>>>>>>Since ebXML is a common format, each accounting platform only
>>>>>>>needs one adapter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Well, I don't believe you.   Anyway, you said I am already
>>>>>>>locked into  *two* different portal traps. What's the other one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A. You are trapped in the banking system with no other way to
>>>>>>>settle ARs or APs except by running payments through banks
>>>>>>>for each and every payment.  That wrecks your bookkeeping and
>>>>>>>your trading partner's bookkeeping, since banks only process
>>>>>>>payment data and block all the transaction data between small
>>>>>>>businesses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  That's right.  So, what good is AR/AP integration between me
>>>>>>>and my trading partner?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Settlement intermediaries such as accounts receivable factors
>>>>>>>can't be cheap today because the data is so confused.  But even
>>>>>>>a robot can do settlement if data is good.  And if collateralized.
>>>>>>>What you are doing is uncoupling the interest cost and the risk,
>>>>>>>which cannot be avoided.  You are making the mechanics of accounting
>>>>>>>and settlement cheaper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Derivatives, promissory notes or digital cash become more practical,
>>>>>>>when you have high quality data.  Do you think global corporations
>>>>>>>all write checks or bank transfers to each other?  at the end of
>>>>>>>each month?  Not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  OK you're telling me to provide a SOAP interface on my ARs
>>>>>>>to my customers, and my APs to my suppliers???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.   Go away.  That's just not the way we do business in podunk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Ok tell you what.   Why don't you pass me your ARs and APs
>>>>>>>in UBL, in ebXML core components format, every time you do a
>>>>>>>purchase or a sale.   You show me how much it's costing you,
>>>>>>>screwing around with AR and AP, your banking and bank
>>>>>>>reconcilation, and other settlement after the conclusion of a sale.
>>>>>>>I will manage the ARs and APs and bank balances for you for 1/2
>>>>>>>cost.  I will bounce all the business differences back to you, since
>>>>>>>you're the only one who can resolve them anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Q.  Ok.   Deal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A.  Ok then why don't you let the computers connect, and do it
>>>>>>>for nothing?  You realize, in the long run, I'm going to be charging
>>>>>>>you money for operating a robot software I got from ebXML
>>>>>>>open source?    sheesh...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA
>>>>>>>International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com
>>>>>>>425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
>>>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
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>>>>>>
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
>>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>>>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
>>>>www.rawlinsecconsulting.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
>>www.rawlinsecconsulting.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
>>
>
>

-- 
Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
www.rawlinsecconsulting.com