Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ... RATHOLE!

[David Lyon <david.lyon@globaltradedesk.com>]

Mike,

> Neither says anything about an *embedded* ("on a chip") web server like
> Apache.

I'm afraid you are wrong.

The Rabbit chip comes with an excellent development kit which features a
full implementation of TCP/IP. You can check the link out yourself at:

http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/products/rcm2200/rcm22_devkit.html

To quote from their documentation:

"Full TCP/IP source code is provided in addition to the Dynamic C software
on CDROM. ICMP, HTTP (includes facilities for SSI, CGI routines, cookies,
and basic authentication), SMTP, FTP and TFTP (client and server)
capabilities are provided"

Anyway, maybe an ebXML implementation is a few months off. Who knows. I know
that there are quite a few SMEs around the world that would love ebXML on a
platform like this. So so simple...

Best Regards

David Lyon
Product Manager
Global TradeDesk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>
To: "David Lyon" <david.lyon@globaltradedesk.com>
Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...
RAT HOLE!


> RAT HOLE ALERT - Here I go diving down...
>
> As I said, David, get real.  The first URL you pointed to says:
>
> "This new design takes integration to a new level and saves significant
> space, cost, weight, and assembly time for designers of embedded
> systems. PROMETHEUS is an ultra-integrated, ultra-rugged,
> ultra-efficient design ready for your industrial and commercial
> application."
>
> The second one has a similar write up.
>
> Neither says anything about an *embedded* ("on a chip") web server like
> Apache.
>
>
> David Lyon wrote:
>
> >Hi Mike,
> >
> >So you're trying to tell me that ebXML could never run on the following
> >hardware:
> >
> >http://www.diamondsystems.com/products/prometheus
> >
> >or
> >
> >http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/products/rcm2200/index.html
> >
> >Is there some sort of incompatability ? or something that I don't know
> >about.
> >
> >These devices already run web servers quite fine so I'm interested to
know
> >why ebXML couldn't be tacked on them as well.
> >
> >David
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mike Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>
> >To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:40 PM
> >Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components ...
> >
> >
> >>David,
> >>
> >>While we agree about SME requirements, I think your remedy is a bit on
> >>the edge of fantasy.  ebXML on a chip?   This reminds me of when people
> >>were afraid that Microsoft was going to build EDI into Windoze.   I can
> >>see an XML parser on a chip a lot sooner than ebXML, and I don't expect
> >>to see a W3C schema validating parser on a chip any time soon.   We
> >>don't even have fully compliant parsers in software yet!
> >>
> >>Get real ;^)
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>David Lyon wrote:
> >>
> >>>Mike,
> >>>
> >>>You're absolutely right.
> >>>
> >>>>The main problem is not necessarily with the SME, but with
> >>>>the tools that are available to them.  Most would accommodate a big
> >>>>customer's request to do business electronically if it was cost
> >>>>effective for them to do so.
> >>>>
> >>>That's why I say that somebody has to go to Asia and produce ebXML on a
> >>>chip.
> >>>
> >>>SMEs will be able to then afford the product. And you will be able to
get
> >>>
> >an
> >
> >>>ROI providing that you can make it work.
> >>>
> >>>David Lyon
> >>>Product Manager
> >>>www.globaltradedesk.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Mike Rawlins" <mike@rawlinsecconsulting.com>
> >>>To: "Christopher Harvey" <ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg>
> >>>Cc: "'Todd Boyle'" <tboyle@rosehill.net>; <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>;
> >>><ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:15 AM
> >>>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components
...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Excuse me, but I can't help but violently disagree with most of this
> >>>>sentiment!  The main problem is not necessarily with the SME, but with
> >>>>the tools that are available to them.  Most would accommodate a big
> >>>>customer's request to do business electronically if it was cost
> >>>>effective for them to do so.  In the current way of doing things (and
> >>>>I'm afraid how ebXML may turn out the same way) it costs them more to
do
> >>>>business electronically than by other means.  And you blame *them* for
> >>>>that?  That's exactly how the big guys work.  If they can't show an
ROI
> >>>>on something, they won't do it.
> >>>>
> >>>>Your thinking reflects a big stick approach which I am increasingly
> >>>>seeing, with large buyers imposing financial penalties of all sorts
upon
> >>>>their suppliers in force a shift of costs from the customer to the
> >>>>supplier.  Does this produce efficiencies?  In some cases yet, but as
> >>>>often as not it forces the supplier to raise their prices so that they
> >>>>can recover costs and still make a profit.  This is *not* a very good
> >>>>
> >>>model.
> >>>
> >>>>We need better solutions, not bigger sticks...
> >>>>
> >>>>Christopher Harvey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Rachel,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>What still amazes me is the assumption (apparently) on the part of
the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>large
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>enterprise is that if they get their needs meet the small guys will
> >>>>>>
> >>>stand
> >>>
> >>>>>>up, salute and march on.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>Very true but... I am increasingly of the opinion that unless we use
> >>>>>
> >the
> >
> >>>>>power of the big guys down onto the SMEs, the latter will not bother
to
> >>>>>
> >>>do
> >>>
> >>>>>anything.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>SMEs do not have much of a collective voice except the scream that
will
> >>>>>
> >>>come
> >>>
> >>>>>when they big guys hit them were it hurts. So, can we blame the big
> >>>>>
> >guys
> >
> >>>for
> >>>
> >>>>>"taking charge"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>As you may gather, my patience with (some... most) SMEs is wearing
> >>>>>
> >thin.
> >
> >>>The
> >>>
> >>>>>average SME will ignore change until it is forced otherwise (at least
> >>>>>
> >in
> >
> >>>>>this part of the world). We are slowly getting more and more of the
big
> >>>>>corporations telling our SMEs: "Do it electronically, or lose the
> >>>>>
> >>>business".
> >>>
> >>>>>Good, about bl**dy time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The SMEs have only themselves to blame. I am new to ebXML but my 0.02
> >>>>>
> >>>cents
> >>>
> >>>>>worth is to ask all involved to understand the needs of the SMEs but
to
> >>>>>
> >>>use
> >>>
> >>>>>the big guys to force change.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Regards
> >>>>>Chris Harvey
> >>>>>Zara Technology Pte Ltd
> >>>>>Singapore
> >>>>>
> >>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>From: "Rachel Foerster" <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>
> >>>>>To: "'Christopher Harvey'" <ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg>; "'Todd
> >>>>>
> >>>Boyle'"
> >>>
> >>>>><tboyle@rosehill.net>
> >>>>>Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> >>>>>Sent: 23 April 2002 01:17
> >>>>>Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core Components
> >>>>>
> >...
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Chris,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Your comments are on the mark! I've personally been a bit dismayed
> >>>>>>
> >over
> >
> >>>>>the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>life history of the ebXML initiative that what once started out to
> >>>>>>
> >have
> >
> >>>a
> >>>
> >>>>>>focus on "inclusion" of the SME and their needs has instead, at
least
> >>>>>>
> >in
> >
> >>>>>my
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>viewpoint, clearly moved over into the domain of the large
enterprise
> >>>>>>
> >>>and
> >>>
> >>>>>>what they need/want.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>What still amazes me is the assumption (apparently) on the part of
the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>large
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>enterprise is that if they get their needs meet the small guys will
> >>>>>>
> >>>stand
> >>>
> >>>>>>up, salute and march on. If the SME's needs are not truly addressed
> >>>>>>
> >>>here,
> >>>
> >>>>>as
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I said during one of my ebXML Marketing Work Group updates to the
> >>>>>>
> >ebXML
> >
> >>>>>>plenary, my personal opinion is that the ebXML effort will have
> >>>>>>
> >failed.
> >
> >>>>>>Rachel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>From: Christopher Harvey [mailto:ckharvey@zaratechnology.com.sg]
> >>>>>>Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 9:09 PM
> >>>>>>To: Todd Boyle
> >>>>>>Cc: ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core
Components
> >>>>>>...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Todd,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Extremely well put. It's somehow comforting to know that SMEs in the
> >>>>>>
> >US
> >
> >>>>>have
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>the same 'mentality' as SMEs here in Asia.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The big gap to be bridged is in getting SMEs to understand that
there
> >>>>>>
> >is
> >
> >>>a
> >>>
> >>>>>>direct financial benefit to be had; opposing that is their belief
that
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>their
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>data must remain 'secret' (as it had for generations - a necessity
> >>>>>>
> >when
> >
> >>>>>more
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>than one set of books have been historically kept).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Rachel is absolutely correct when she says: It's a business
imperative
> >>>>>>
> >>>and
> >>>
> >>>>>>necessary now and into the future to be able to exchange unambiguous
> >>>>>>
> >>>data.
> >>>
> >>>>>>As a tech company, we know that. Our government knows that. But
> >>>>>>
> >getting
> >
> >>>>>SMEs
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>to understand that is a whole different uphill struggle.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>ebXML is an excellent initiative but... the real SMEs, the
mass-market
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>small
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>ones, with 50 or usually less, employees - which make up the vast
> >>>>>>
> >>>majority
> >>>
> >>>>>>of companies - have a mindset that you would not believe unless you
> >>>>>>
> >have
> >
> >>>>>>been exposed to it. For the success of ebXML, and e-commerce in
> >>>>>>
> >general,
> >
> >>>>>it
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>is imperative that all involved with these important initiatives
have
> >>>>>>
> >a
> >
> >>>>>good
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>grasp of the SME mindset.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I hope this is not drifting off topic but it is vital that XML
> >>>>>>
> >potential
> >
> >>>>>>does not become solely the domain of the big players...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Regards
> >>>>>>Chris Harvey
> >>>>>>Zara Technology Pte Ltd
> >>>>>>Singapore
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>From: "Todd Boyle" <tboyle@rosehill.net>
> >>>>>>To: <rachelf@ix.netcom.com>
> >>>>>>Cc: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> >>>>>>Sent: 22 April 2002 07:56
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] RE: [EDI-L] Article on ebXML Core
Components
> >>>>>>
> >>>...
> >>>
> >>>>>>>At 09:36 AM 4/21/02, Rachel Foerster wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>It's a business imperative and necessary now and into the future
> >>>>>>>>to be able to exchange unambiguous data. And personally I believe
> >>>>>>>>
> >the
> >
> >>>>>>>>future will be **not** the shipping off to a business partner data
> >>>>>>>>
> >or
> >
> >>>>>>>>documents, etc. but providing real time controlled access to the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>necessary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>information transparently between enterprises so that
> >>>>>>>>
> >cross-enterprise
> >
> >>>>>>>>business processes can execute to the desired outcome.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>As more and more small businesses have always-on connections
> >>>>>>>to the internet, sooner or later it will dawn on them to expose at
> >>>>>>>least some limited views or query interfaces to their customers
> >>>>>>>and suppliers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Small businesses often have only one person performing all roles
> >>>>>>>that interface a particular customer or supplier, and accordingly
> >>>>>>>have no need for business process management. The cost of updating
> >>>>>>>all the statuses and stages of a BP exceed their benefit.  Cell
> >>>>>>>
> >phones,
> >
> >>>>>>>headsets, and the collapse of long distance have made it even
cheaper
> >>>>>>>to handle exceptions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I don't wish to diminish the usefulness of ebXML BP in any way, for
> >>>>>>>Enterprise or other value chains where they are appropriate!  But
> >>>>>>>I think the exchange of documents remains the best potential
> >>>>>>>way to get ebXML in the door of SMEs.  And, once they gain some
> >>>>>>>familiarity with it, they will be much closer to supply chain
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>integration
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>or other BP scenarios.  Here is one fictitious dialog for
> >>>>>>>your entertainment
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Todd Boyle CPA
> >>>>>>>AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Let's take a break, and get beat up by a small busieness owner....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q:  "Why should I allow my customer or supplier to see the purchase
> >>>>>>>and sale data in *my* accounting system?? "
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A: "you already do.  Whenever you send a PO or an invoice. "
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q:  Yeah but why should I allow them to see their Account
Receivable
> >>>>>>>page, or Account Payable, in *my* system?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A:  You already do, whenever you send them a statement.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yeah, but I never send statements until they have been reviewed
> >>>>>>>at the end of the month and the bank account is reconciled to find
> >>>>>>>all the mistakes in our posting payments.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Ok then why don't you expose a view of the invoices now,
> >>>>>>>and expose the reviewed statements at the end of the month?
> >>>>>>>You don't have to change your procedures at all.  Too bad your bank
> >>>>>>>is so unhelpful http://www.gldialtone.com/transaction04.htm
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Well why should I do this, what's the payoff for me?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Some of your customers might pay you sooner.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but all my good customers already pay me on time,
> >>>>>>>and my bad customers, I don't think they have the intelligence
> >>>>>>>to use a computer.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Maybe when they can login and see their account they will
> >>>>>>>understand it better.  Maybe they are paying their other suppliers
> >>>>>>>sooner than they are paying you. Why don't you try emailing them
> >>>>>>>their statements more often.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but what are you trying to sell me?  You're just trying
> >>>>>>>to capture me into a central server or single-vendor software.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Sharing views *directly* with trading partners is the exact
> >>>>>>>opposite of being trapped in a portal model.  Today, you are
> >>>>>>>trapped in two separate portal models:  first, you are trapped in
> >>>>>>>your local software with no electronic interface...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but what am I supposed to "Interface" with?  There is
> >>>>>>>no standard. Nobody else has any "Interface" either.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Do you vote?
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yes.
> >>>>>>>A.  Do you make charitable contributions?
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yes.
> >>>>>>>A.  How much did you contribute last year?
> >>>>>>>Q.  None of your business.
> >>>>>>>A.  Transaction integration helps the planet and it doesn't
> >>>>>>>        cost you anything.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  What do you mean??
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  You're cutting down the paper consumption, getting
> >>>>>>>vehicles off the road, cutting trips to banks and post offices.
> >>>>>>>You're saving labor. People can do more useful things.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yeah but what do you mean, "Free"?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Do you already do accounting work, posting all your sales
> >>>>>>>and purchases?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Then exposing the data to the trading partner costs effectively
> >>>>>>>nothing. You don't have to compose any new documents. In fact,
> >>>>>>>the trading partner can freeload off your data entry work.  They
> >>>>>>>simply click "OK" to suck your data into their computer and post
it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Yes.  But where is the software to do this??
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A. There are modules in the open source ebXML projects, and in
> >>>>>>>the VARs and developer communities of most of the accounting
> >>>>>>>platforms.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Why that's ridiculous.  You're bullsh*itting me.   Integration
> >>>>>>>always costs megabucks.   I have been burned many times in
> >>>>>>>the past by computer consultants.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  In the past, the N-squared problem required a separate
> >>>>>>>software solution for every combination of thousands of software
> >>>>>>>products, that is, *millions* of adapters to connect with each
other.
> >>>>>>>Since ebXML is a common format, each accounting platform only
> >>>>>>>needs one adapter.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Well, I don't believe you.   Anyway, you said I am already
> >>>>>>>locked into  *two* different portal traps. What's the other one?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A. You are trapped in the banking system with no other way to
> >>>>>>>settle ARs or APs except by running payments through banks
> >>>>>>>for each and every payment.  That wrecks your bookkeeping and
> >>>>>>>your trading partner's bookkeeping, since banks only process
> >>>>>>>payment data and block all the transaction data between small
> >>>>>>>businesses.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  That's right.  So, what good is AR/AP integration between me
> >>>>>>>and my trading partner?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Settlement intermediaries such as accounts receivable factors
> >>>>>>>can't be cheap today because the data is so confused.  But even
> >>>>>>>a robot can do settlement if data is good.  And if collateralized.
> >>>>>>>What you are doing is uncoupling the interest cost and the risk,
> >>>>>>>which cannot be avoided.  You are making the mechanics of
accounting
> >>>>>>>and settlement cheaper.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Derivatives, promissory notes or digital cash become more
practical,
> >>>>>>>when you have high quality data.  Do you think global corporations
> >>>>>>>all write checks or bank transfers to each other?  at the end of
> >>>>>>>each month?  Not.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  OK you're telling me to provide a SOAP interface on my ARs
> >>>>>>>to my customers, and my APs to my suppliers???
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Yes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.   Go away.  That's just not the way we do business in podunk.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Ok tell you what.   Why don't you pass me your ARs and APs
> >>>>>>>in UBL, in ebXML core components format, every time you do a
> >>>>>>>purchase or a sale.   You show me how much it's costing you,
> >>>>>>>screwing around with AR and AP, your banking and bank
> >>>>>>>reconcilation, and other settlement after the conclusion of a sale.
> >>>>>>>I will manage the ARs and APs and bank balances for you for 1/2
> >>>>>>>cost.  I will bounce all the business differences back to you,
since
> >>>>>>>you're the only one who can resolve them anyway.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Q.  Ok.   Deal.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>A.  Ok then why don't you let the computers connect, and do it
> >>>>>>>for nothing?  You realize, in the long run, I'm going to be
charging
> >>>>>>>you money for operating a robot software I got from ebXML
> >>>>>>>open source?    sheesh...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA
> >>>>>>>International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com
> >>>>>>>425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
> >>>>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
> >>>>>>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
> >>>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
> >>>>>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
> >>>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
> >>>>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
> >>>>www.rawlinsecconsulting.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
> >>>>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
> >>>>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
> >>www.rawlinsecconsulting.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
> >>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription
> >>manager: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting
> www.rawlinsecconsulting.com
>
>
>
>