RE: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls

[colin adam <colin.adam@webservices.org>]

Duane,

I agree, an article would be great.

Webservices.org will pay a good rate for copyright for the article...if
that is an incentive to anyone :)

I suggest the article be peer reviewed in draft via this group. 

Regards
colin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Duane Nickull [mailto:duane@xmlglobal.com]
> Sent: 14 June 2002 19:44
> To: colin adam
> Cc: 'Jean-Jacques Dubray'; 'ebxml org'; ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org
> Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls
> 
> Thanks Colin.
> 
> In future,  I would be great to see an article on your site showing
how
> ebXML can be implemented as a series of Web services.  There could be
> some real value in that, expecially for SME's who may not be able to
> afford/maintain software do do things like build CPA's.
> 
> WS do not make sense for using everywhere and IMHO, there needs to be
a
> business driver before implementing a WS interface.  The logical
> components of ebXML for WS candidates are (again - IMHO):
> 
> 1. Registry  - Farrukh has already done a ton of work in this area and
> there is a part of the registry sec dealing with this implementation
> issue.
> 
> 2.  CPA - building a CPA could be a great candidate for someone to
> implement as a web service.  THe input could be:
> 
>    a/ Company A's CPP
>    b/ Company B's CPP
>    c/ The roles they wish to assume
>    d/ instructions on precedence for multiple choices
> 
> 3. BIE/document assembler - the input values could be a set of
business
> contexts (described in a Context rules Message) and a list of Core
> Components or BIE's.  The return value could be a fully assembled
schema
> for the business payload.
> 
> 4. Transformations - input values are the schema from #3 (above) and a
> set of information in another native format (perhaps one of the first
5
> temporary payloads).  The return value woudlbe the final business
> payload for a step within the business collaboration.
> 
> I know I have promised such an article int he past but time has
dictated
> otherwise. Anyone care to take a swat at this?
> 
> Duane
> colin adam wrote:
> >
> > Duane,
> >
> > Ok, I understand now where we differ. I use "web services" not to
simply
> > mean a programming interface...
> >
> > You are reading it as programming interface vs ebXML which of course
is
> > a silly question, hence your comments.
> >
> > We could probably spend a great deal of time on what the term "web
> > services" now means. More so these days however it is becoming a
general
> > term to mean service orientated architectures. Ask someone to
explain
> > web services and they will talk about two applications working over
> > interoperable protocols with contracted services.  This is the
> > definition I was using while constructing the poll. This goes beyond
a
> > programming interface definition, to one which takes in distributed
> > message exchanges within an IT architecture
> >
> > I accept the view of this group that ebXML and web services (in the
> > programming interface definition) can not be compared. They are
apples
> > and oranges.
> >
> > It is all about perspective, and I will bear in mind this discussion
in
> > future polls. Obviously it is not as simple to say ebXML vs web
services
> > since people understand this to mean different things. I have now
closed
> > the poll.
> >
> > Thanks for your kind comments on the site. I am always keen to post
news
> > on ebXML and if anyone has any, please send it to
> > submissions@webservices.org
> >
> > By the way, I never placed the poll up to gain traffic or start
> > something between ws and ebxml. This is in response to the email
sent to
> > this group that accused me of this.
> >
> > Cheers
> > colin
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Duane Nickull [mailto:duane@xmlglobal.com]
> > > Sent: 14 June 2002 18:53
> > > To: colin adam
> > > Cc: 'Jean-Jacques Dubray'; 'ebxml org'; ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org
> > > Subject: Re: [ebxml-dev] gorilla hair vs. beach balls
> > >
> > > Colin:
> > >
> > > Some comments inline:
> > >
> > > colin adam wrote:
> > > > Anyway, I think we misunderstand each other. I see web services
vs
> > ebXML
> > > > as asking this question...
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > > I see your question as "ebXML vs programming interfaces".  I think
the
> > > misunderstanding is at your end and related to technology.
> > >
> > > > Does a person who wants to set up a b2b exchange think about a
web
> > > > services based solution or an ebXML solution. I can see projects
> > where
> > > > one of the other would be more suitable. But I would certainly
> > consider
> > > > both in some circumstances. On the ground I think this is
happening.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > > Again - apples and oranges..  WS is an interface to a work unit of
> > > information processing.  There are nmo constraints on what the IP
may
> > be
> > > doing.
> > >
> > >
> > > > But before you get annoyed at this statement please consider how
we
> > both
> > > > define web services. I use it as a term to refer to soap, wsdl,
uddi
> > and
> > > > all products broadly based on those protocols also. The ws-i.org
I
> > would
> > > > say is a "web services group" etc.. blue titan's mission
critical
> > > > network products is a "web services product"...
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > UDDI is a directory service which like ebXML,  could be
communicated
> > to
> > > via a web service.  In fact, it is.  UDDI itself is not a protocol
for
> > > web services.  WSDL is a schema used to describe a web service
> > interface
> > > including the input parameters and return messages.  SOAP is a
> > protocol
> > > for communicating with another endpoint using XML over HTTP
following
> > a
> > > simple schema.  I still don;t see what you're trying to say.
> > >
> > > > Generally since ebXML uses standards above the core three, I see
> > them as
> > > > a separate entity. Connected but separate. I would call a ebxml
> > product
> > > > an "ebXML product", not a "web services" product. This is just
my
> > > > opinion and I believe the general community opinion.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > Please do not speak for the general community.  It is your opinon.
> > >
> > > An ebXML Product can be implemented using WS to communicate with
it.
> > > Maybe what you really meant to ask was "WS .vs java interfaces"
since
> > > they are really two different ways to communicate with a function.
> > Then
> > > you could make comparison based on several criteria:
> > >
> > > abstracts programming language from class?
> > > network lag?
> > > etc...
> > >
> > >
> > > > >From what I see there seems to be a general split in the
industry
> > > > between "web services" products (things that use the protocols
> > above)
> > > > and those that use ebXML. A web services product is for example
an
> > IDE
> > > > that lets you create web services like VS .Net etc..
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > Let's you create a way of communicating with a piece of code.  It
> > > doesn't constrain what that code could do.
> > >
> > > > Or are we saying that on no basis can there ever be any
competition
> > > > between an "web services" product or and "ebxml product"...
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >
> > > You are comparing two different things.....
> > >
> > > Duane Nickull
> > >
> > > --
> > > VP Strategic Relations,
> > > Technologies Evangelist
> > > XML Global Technologies
> > > ****************************
> > > ebXML software downloads - http://www.xmlglobal.com/prod/
> 
> --
> VP Strategic Relations,
> Technologies Evangelist
> XML Global Technologies
> ****************************
> ebXML software downloads - http://www.xmlglobal.com/prod/
> 
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