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Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - CoreComponents-Transactions!


I believe we spoke about this exact topic in Orlando, and it certainly came
up again at other times within CC.

I have long believed that we are achieving little if anything without
defining messages that can be supported and used - built, naturally, of the
harmonized components that *have* been the focus of this work. After all,
interoperability in today's technology is generally keyed to the message
level, and not below, from an application's perspective. (Although low-level
agreement has it's own set of important benefits).

I also remember being told quite clearly by the ebXML steering committee
that we would *not* be working on messages in CC.

At the same time, I get the sense that many people agree with us that
ultimately - and all other good things aside, as I believe the work CC has
done is both impportant and useful - a group *will* build such messages out
of the harmonized core components that have been described.

I guess that what I don't know is how the existing ebXML executive will feel
about that effort. I also hope that we can build only one common purchase
order, and not several. I can easily see many groups going off to build the
common message, resulting in the same chaos we have today. It would also be
a shame to waste the capabilities for handling variation represented by the
run-time extension capabilities of such technologies as XML Schema.

I guess at this point it's a "wait and see" kind of thing, and I'm sure
there will be much discussion of this point in Vienna.


Arofan Gregory

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Harvey [mailto:ebxml@eccnet.eccnet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 7:59 AM
To: William J. Kammerer
Cc: ebXML Core
Subject: Re: What do people really expect from ebXML? -


	Shy! I don't think we have ever met face-to-face but I don't get
the impression you were ever shy |-).

	I have had my head in the trenches lately and haven't had an
opportunity to read much less communicate my thoughts on ebXML
initiatives.  I have mostly deleted messages.  However, that this thread
does interest me.  Some of the groups that I work with are confused about
how ebXML can help them, if at all.

	ebXML, in my mind, has taken on a totally different turn from the
original concept.  When an individual wanting to learn and understand
ebXML is told to go read the public documents to get an understanding of
exactly what ebXML is all about, there is something conceptually wrong
with this approach. For many years I worked in S&E User Support and found
it totally rude when colleagues would say RTFM.  Basically, this is what
we are saying to individuals wanting to understand ebXML.

	There are currently over 20 documents available for public review
doesn't include the ones that haven't been approved for public review).  
Is there anyone who has time to sit down an read 20 different documents on
ebXML and work enough to feed their family?  I don't!

	David Lyons specifically asked 'where are the messages' in core
components.  In my mind this is the same as asking 'where is the beef'.

	It has also been said that the 'world doesn't need another
purchase order'.  No the world needs a 'common' purchase order, as well as
world peace and a cure for world hunger.  ebXML can solve the 'common
purchase order' but they can't create world peace, as well as a cure for
world hunger.

	After the Orlando meeting, it was my understanding that core
components would develop a set of core components that could be used in
'common messages'.

	Just my 2 cents worth.


Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 410-787-9200 FAX: 9830 
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |        
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, William J. Kammerer wrote:

> David Lyon reiterates his demand for XML documents covering the usual,
> viz., Product Catalogs, Purchase Orders, Invoices/Receipts, Payment
> Advices, and  Statement of Accounts.  And just as often, he has been
> reminded that producing business documents was not within the initial
> scope of ebXML.  As a matter of fact, I remember the pithy quote being
> bandied about, in the early days of ebXML, to the effect "the World
> doesn't need another PO."  I never really knew what to make of that, but
> being painfully shy, I didn't dare ask "what the heck does that mean?"
> It does sound like there will be a long wait for these documents coming
> out of ebXML - first we have to model the process, then "discover" the
> core components all the way down to the basic elements, etc. etc.  So,
> if  "It's costing [David] money every day that ebXML is not going," I
> suggest he take a look at the existing B2B libraries such as xCBL, at
> http://www.xcbl.org/,  or OAGIS, at http://www.openapplications.org/.
> Both xCBL and OAGIS seem to have everything David is looking for, and if
> my back were against the wall to come up with XML business documents,
> those are the first two places I'd look. xCBL even says that their
> versions will be compatible with whatever ebXML comes up with - and
> assuming a migration path is provided - so using it may provide the path
> of least resistance and assurance of compatibility.
> William J. Kammerer
> 4950 Blazer Pkwy.
> Dublin, OH USA 43017-3305
> +1 614 791-1600
> Visit FORESIGHT Corp. at http://www.foresightcorp.com/
> "accelerating time-to-trade"
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