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Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core Components -Transactions!

Title: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core components..
Yup, I remember those days when mainframe timesharing was it; and ALGOL with the Beatles and a little free love was a popular in Europe and other places.
I suppose by your definition of data modeling, it'd be fair to include ANSI X.12 and the UN/CEFACT EDIFACT process as data modeling in their own way ? Especially now that CEFACT mandates models with all new EDIFACT messages.
Also when you say xCBL doesn't have a data model, are you asking or stating a fact ? I wasn't sure by your words.
-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Goatly [mailto:philip.goatly@bolero.net]
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 3:19 AM
To: Welsh, David; 'David Lyon'; ebxml-core@lists.ebxml.org
Cc: Peter Guldentops
Subject: Re: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core Components -Transactions!

Hi Folks,
        I come from an era when IT was called Data Processing. The truth of the fact that Computer Systems produce data has not gone away despite the change in name from DP to IT.
        You may design the most sophisticated process in the world e.g the best factory - but if you have no raw material i.e data you cannot do much. However even if you have very unsophisticated processes but do have raw materials you can create something of value viz. The pyramids in Egypt.
        ebXML has concentrated on process, often to the detriment of what is being processed- the data.
        A process model is part of ebXML but I have not seen a data model of any note. xCBL seems to be something which exists and may perhaps be a starting point for some core componenets - but even this does not seem to include a data model - but it may be that I missed it.
       At Bolero we have been data modelling - amongst other things for nearly 2 years - and have come to a number of conclusions which could be of use, when this work moves forward.
Cheers, Phil
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:18 AM
Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core Components -Transactions!

The sentence "enable a global electronic marketplace where enterprises of any size and in any geographical location can meet and conduct business with each other through the exchange of XML based messages" is a strong statement that about using xml messages. 
Maybe to my reading I'm picking up a more important message from the text. Yes, I agree with you there's a strong statement of XML will be used, but I would have thought an even stronger statement comes across that ebXML is about getting people around the world to meet and conduct business with each other. So the challenge for us all would seem to be about addressing how business get's done; ie. what's behind/beyond the events and activities that revolve around an actual XML message flow.
The move of traditional EDI from a document based focus to a Business Process modeling approach, seems to promise to be an interesting (and very challenging) activity to come.
The technical architecture document that is available is lacking on details as how to make the above statement a reality. 
Well an architecture is usually a statement of form and/or function, while the mechanics can be found in more technical specifications plus other supporting documents. There's some truth to that w.r.t. ebXML, and there's a full set of publically available documents for everyone (including yourself) to review. 
I am hoping that this mailing list will enable me to find out more about the core components so that we can achieve the above stated goal. 
If there is any way that I may be able to help, I would be glad to offer my services. 
Reviewing the ebXML documents out for public comment would be a great start.
It's good you voice an open opinion, and you can review the ebXML material today, which is a very positive strength of having an open ebXML development process; as opposed to some other closed technical developments.
Time will tell.
Best regards
David Lyon
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:02 PM
Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core Components -Transactions!

Sorry David,
People need world peace, a good solution to world hunger and a cure to Diabetes, but failing that and much more ..... 
EDI or not ...
(Business) People need (better) Business Processes
.... and part of processes are Business Transactions; and part of transactions are Business Documents - which is where Core Components start coming into play and probably something more closer to what I gather you might recognize from some of the traditional EDI files people exchange today.
Perhaps you can best check your source who has been informing you about ebXML, and I do beg to differ as to what ebXML is being 'marketed' as !
I can only advise you to review the ebXML documents that are out for public review for some time now, perhaps starting with the ebXML Technical Architecture.
ebXML right now is about setting the stage so the world can do business electronically.
Although we'll all get to reap some specific immediate benefits, ebXML is not specifically about another way for data transport or yet another way to made an 'edi file'.
And where we go from here ...... NOW the real hard work begins for us all in business and industry associations !
Well that's my 2 cents and I'm quoting myself.
Dave Welsh
-----Original Message-----
From: David Lyon [mailto:djlyon@one.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 8:54 PM
To: ebxml-core@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: Re: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core Components - Transactions!

People need transactions !
How can ebXML ever work if it doesn't have transactions ?
I was led to believe that ebXML was all about defining some standard XML transactions for eb.
What the world expects is some simple XML documents for:
 - Product Catalogs
 - Purchase Orders
 - Invoices/Receipts
 - Payment Advices
 - Statement of Accounts
The work isn't hard. There are hundreds of different definitions around and thousands of people who will willingly do the work.
All that is needed is just to choose one simple set, document it, and go through a revision process just as with EDI. That's what I've been told ebXML would be doing.
Presently, the problem isn't lack of XML definitions, it's having a well balanced set.
Operating under the auspices of the United Nations, and the way that ebXML is marketed, a lot of people with EDI experience have been given the impression that ebXML will define some XML transactions not dissimilar to EDI. That is *a very real expectation*.
People really are expecting an XML transaction set from ebXML. Especially those with an EDI background.
Take care
David Lyon
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core components..


        ebXML has never intended to create transactions as a deliverable.  In fact, ebXML does not even have a requirement to develop the specifications to develop them.  Is this a failure of ebXML  - in my opinion yes.  Do we need these documents quickly - yes.  Is it best if a single consistent approach to schema design, naming conventions, use of ancillary W3C specifications is developed by an international, neutral standards body - yes.  Will we get them quickly - doubtful if after 18 months we still don't have an agreement on what it is we are developing a process for.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lyon [mailto:djlyon@one.net.au]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 11:01 PM
> To: ebxml-core@lists.ebxml.org
> Subject: Re: What do people really expect from ebXML? - Core
> components..
> All,
> We really need some XML specifications for the core
> components of ebXML, as
> we have products that we really want to ship later in the year.
> It appears as though there are some difficulties in defining the core
> components, although I note there have been some good efforts in the
> directory area and so forth.
> If ebXML needs to produce documentation quickly, then I would suggest
> concentrating on the most important things as far as eb is concerned.
> In my opinion, there are four documents that need to be
> designed, or adapted
> from existing patterns.
> They are:
>                  (1) The Purchase Order
>                  (2) The Invoice / Receipt / ASN
>                  (3) The Payment Advice
>                  (4) The Statement of Account
> With documentation that describes these four documents, a lot
> of pressure on
> ebXML could be dissapated.
> I've seen that we have quite a few people here who are
> sufficiently skilled
> to make a start on these components. Also, Edifact/X12 could
> quite easily be
> stripped to produce a relatively simple subset. It doesn't need to do
> everything, only the basic stuff.
> Forgive my optimism, but we have Customers who really want to
> bash some of
> these messages around. It's costing me money every day that
> ebXML is not
> going, so if called upon, I'd certainly be willing to help.
> Take care all
> David Lyon
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this elist send a message with the single word
> "unsubscribe" in the body to: ebxml-core-request@lists.ebxml.org

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