Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL

[David Lyon <djlyon@one.net.au>]

Abid,

Security, security. Well, I think that's got it's own discussion thread
anyway.

I probably disagree that mobile devices can't be secured well enough. There
are a number of PC Card security devices that can provide excellent levels
of security.

Anyway, paper ledgers have never been that secure in any case. I know this
because lately somebody broke into my accountants office and stole mine.
Lucky I had backup copies.

That's the good thing about mobile devices, they are secure enough to take
with you. Can be protected to a reasonable enough degree and if you back the
data up, your business can survive what otherwise would be catostrophic
events.

Overall, I think you've got some pretty good ideas and these products are
just sitting there waiting to be made.

Take care

David Lyon
ebXML Evangalist

----- Original Message -----
From: Abid Farooqui <farooqui@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL


> You are correct David about your assertion for the future. However, for
> today that is most likely not the case. One thing we keep forgetting about
> when using things like wireless networks, PDAs and the internet is data
> security. Not only today's PDA's not really capable of handling things
like
> asymmetric cryptographic algorithms very efficiently, they also don't have
> any strong security mechanisms built-in, that will allow placing sensitive
> business data on them. Sensitive business data may simply mean that if and
> when the PDA is misplaced by someone and if it gets into the wrong hands,
it
> gives that person an easy way in into some company's network. I hope soon
> there will be solutions for this (passwords just don't cut it), including
> bio security identification solutions etc. We should be ready for that no
> doubt.
> Sincerely,
> Abid Farooqui
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Lyon" <djlyon@one.net.au>
> To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL
>
>
> Abid,
>
> That's certainly one view.
>
> Who has the (technical) client and who has the server is not going to be
> obvious as it once was.
>
> If a consultant (even an EDI consultant) does some work for a large
company
> and needs to bill. There's no reason why it can't be done from their PDA
> directly back to the corporation straight away and via some wireless
> mechanism like 3G or a net link. They could check their PDA to see if the
> money had been paid.
>
> In that case, who has the client and who has the server. Neither really
> because they are both peers. This is how the future of business is more
> likely to be.
>
> Also, handheld technology only trails in power big computer room
technology
> by about 12 years. That means that anything that runs now in a computer
room
> will run in a portable version in about 12 years.
>
> I remember working for a Value Added Network that once used MIPS
computers.
> At the time they were used to run trading accounts for thousands of
> customers. Now, computers like that have less power than PDAs but they
still
> did the job.
>
> Look at how Compaq was able to swallow Tandem; the once gem of non-stop
> electronic commerce solutions.
>
> So therefore, the processing power that a Plumber is going to have in his
> van will one day surpass anything that any large company with hundreds of
> thousands of clients has today. We've already seen it happen, and it won't
> stop.
>
> These days, a modern PC has a 40gig hard drive which is enough space to
hold
> the UDDI information for every company in the world. And that's what the
> Small Enterprise can afford !
>
> Instead of designing for the past, with ancient paradigms, we should be
> designing software for what we can do with the computers for next year,
with
> their 80 gig drives. That's what the plumber will be upgrading to next.
>
> Take care
>
> David Lyon
> ebXML Evangalist
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Abid Farooqui <farooqui@tampabay.rr.com>
> To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL
>
>
> > Wow ... six million dollar man, I think I know that show but I am going
to
> > leave it vague here lest I show my age :).
> > I always envisioned making ebxml based platform that is client/server
> based.
> > Server resides with the big guy who hundread or thousands of trading
> > partners where as the client resides on each one of his smaller trading
> > partners who don't necessorily need a heavy weight server but would like
> to
> > do business with this and perhaps a couple of other big guys. The client
> > side should be cheap (it has to be or there is no difference between
this
> > and EDI besides technology). Also expensive membership VAN pipes are not
> > required.
> > Abid Farooqui
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Lyon" <djlyon@one.net.au>
> > To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL
> >
> >
> > Rémy,
> >
> > I'm very sure that low-cost applications will happen, for if it doesn't
> > ebXML will be dead.
> >
> > This doesn't mean that the price of consulting will go down or that
> high-end
> > solutions will be any cheaper, but having a low entry cost to smaller
> > participants for ebXML is extremely important.
> >
> > One of the biggest problems faced by EDI was cost. Not only cost of
> > installation but the costs of operation.
> >
> > Now that hardware and software development costs have dropped so
> > significantly since the days of EDI, it's about time that the same
> happened
> > with business messaging platforms like ebXML. Nobody does badly if the
> size
> > of the market for such products suddenly increases by a factor of say,
10.
> >
> > The true home of ebXML should be on the PDA or wristwatch where people
can
> > actually use the technology. Not in airconditioned computer rooms filled
> > with techno-geeks.
> >
> > These days, most plumbers (in developed countries) can afford 3G access
in
> > their delivery vans.
> >
> > So why not make ebXML the software platform of choice for such people.
> >
> > As they used to say on the show 'The 6 Million dollar man', "We have the
> > technology"
> >
> > David
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Rémy Marchand <rm-edi@worldnet.fr>
> > To: Abid Farooqui <farooqui@tampabay.rr.com>; Bob Haugen
> > <linkage@interaccess.com>; <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL
> >
> >
> > > I totally support Abid.
> > >
> > > We need on the shelf and low cost solutions, even if they are
> implementing
> > > only a subset of the detailed implementations.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Abid Farooqui" <farooqui@tampabay.rr.com>
> > > To: "Bob Haugen" <linkage@interaccess.com>;
<ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 4:20 AM
> > > Subject: Re: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Bob,
> > > > If you read the thread about WFSL completely you will realize that I
> was
> > > > just answering someone's question about the differences between WSDL
> and
> > > > WFSL and nothing really to do with ebxml.
> > > >
> > > > My other point about automating business document processing between
> > > vastly
> > > > different market verticals like high tech electronics and HR. The
> point
> > I
> > > am
> > > > trying to make was that if a PO specification for electronics
industry
> > and
> > > > HR for example is very different then implementation will be harder
> than
> > > if
> > > > they all followed the same standard for a PO. ebXML has pushed this
to
> > the
> > > > verticals to decide for themselves which gives us the same kind of
> > > scenario
> > > > as with todays EDIFACT, X12 and the list goes on. I don't see any
> > > > discussion, analysis or even an attempt to solve this in any paper.
> > > > I will say though that ebXML documentation is too high level without
> > > enough
> > > > concrete examples and there is no logical order recommended to read
it
> > in
> > > > (too many white papers that are not useful for development). Also
some
> > of
> > > it
> > > > seems to documentation for the sake of documentation. As a developer
> who
> > > > wants to implement an ebxml server and who has not been involved in
it
> > for
> > > > the last 18 or so months, I have not been able to find the head or
the
> > > tail
> > > > for ebxml specification. There is no reference implementation or
> toolkit
> > > > either which would help. High level specification is all dandy but
the
> > > proof
> > > > is in the pudding. In this respect web services seem to be way ahead
> of
> > > > ebxml even though there are some problems there that need to be
> > addressed.
> > > I
> > > > do think that the documentation can be better organized, summarized
> and
> > > > needs to be more to the point for developers. May be there needs to
be
> a
> > > > developer's guide that touches it all just enough for a developer to
> > look
> > > at
> > > > and understand. Developers really don't need or care about the
> business
> > > > case, white papers etc.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Abid Farooqui
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bob Haugen" <linkage@interaccess.com>
> > > > To: "'Abid Farooqui'" <farooqui@tampabay.rr.com>;
> > > > <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 7:32 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: WSFL, IBM, and WSDL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > <Abid Farooqui> (collected from three messages)
> > > > > Anyway, even if we go with the approach you suggest, let me ask
> this.
> > > > > How are you planning to automate business processes across vastly
> > > > different
> > > > > verticals without the kind of pain that is involved in doing so
> today.
> > > > > Because if we still have to go through all that kind of stuff, we
> can
> > > just
> > > > > put ebXML and all other SME solutions on the shelf and just stick
> with
> > > how
> > > > > things are today.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh I also forgot to mention about WFSL ... it kind of also tells
you
> > in
> > > > what
> > > > > order to call different methods of a web service. If you have a
> > shopping
> > > > > cart service with methods like "getCart", "addItem", "checkOut"
etc.
> > It
> > > > will
> > > > > not make sense to try to checkOut before at least calling
"getCart"
> > > right?
> > > > > These things are kind of missing from WSDL. Although they can be
> > easily
> > > > > added there. They did not have to come up with a new thing for all
> the
> > > > > features that are in WFSL. There is a very good article talking
> about
> > > some
> > > > > problems within WSDL in the June/July issue of XML magazine
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.xmlmag.com/upload/free/features/xml/2001/06jun01/ab0103/ab0103.as
> > > > p
> > > > > </Abid Farooqui>
> > > > >
> > > > > Abid, which ebXML documents have you studied?
> > > > > For example, have you studied the business process documents?
> > > > > They're the ones with Business Process as the project team on page
> > > > > http://www.ebxml.org/specs/index.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > The ebXML answers to the above problems and questions are in those
> > > > > documents.  I'd be interested to know if your questions indicate
> that
> > > > > you have not read those documents, or you have read them but the
> > > > > answers are presented too obscurely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Bob Haugen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
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