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Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] Gartner and ebXML


Having been involved in the ebXML intiative since its first meeting in
November, 1999, and having also been a co-lead on the ebXML Marketing team
for awhile, I want to contragulate your company for writing one of the most
succinct, clear and understandable documents about ebXML and how it plays
with EDI and Web Services that I've seen.

This article deserves to have the broadest circulation around the world
possible. I would like your permission to make it downloadable from my web

On the other hand, I've been watching the ongoing work of the various
technical committees and work groups, especially those continuing the ebXML
work under UN/CEFACT and have grave concerns about the extreme complexity
now being built into the various specifications. It appears to me that the
needs and focus on the SME have been totally eclipsed by the big guys. I can
remember my remarks at the ebXML Brussels meeting in May, 2000, that if
ebXML does not meet the needs of the SME, it will fail. I hope that this is
not what I'm observing at the present time. Thus, Gartner's comments below
about the "good enough" certainly ring true.

Rachel Foerster
Rachel Foerster & Associates, Ltd.
39432 North Avenue
Beach Park, IL 60099
Voice: 847-872-8070
Fax: 847-872-6860
eMail: rachel@rfa-edi.com <mailto:rachel@rfa-edi.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Capell [mailto:steve.capell@redwahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:43 AM
To: Brian Repko; ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] Gartner and ebXML


Gartner has published quite a bit of material on ebXML.  Apparently their
internal search engine returns 80 hits on ebXML.  I attach some excerpts
below.  I think the problem is that they see it as a complex,
"over-engineered" solution in the context of web services.  They do admit
that complex standards such as ebXML and RosettaNet are needed for B2B
automation (as distinct from simple web-services).

It is just a bit unfortunate that gartner don't make it clear that ebXML is
"necessarily complex" - ie that is just complex enough to meet the
requirements of scalable B2B interoperability.

I'd suggest that a major focus of the ebxml marketing group should be to
work with Gartner on a series of papers focussed on "scalable
interoperability" (or some other relevant title) that make the case for
ebXML style "complex web services".  The ebXML marketing group is free to
use the attached white paper as a starting point.


Steve Capell
Sydney, Australia
Tel : +61 410 437854

Comments from Gartner

Explaining Web Services' Apparent Contradictions (AV-16-4551)
ebXML - the OSI of Web Services
Another misconception surrounding Web services is that many enterprises
often incorrectly lump them together with grand business-to-business (B2B)
schemes, such as ebXML and RosettaNet. Although these B2B schemes are
needed, and they eventually may employ Web services technologies as
lower-level underpinnings (for example, ebXML in the future will use SOAP
messaging), they are overkill for Web services uses today. In fact, the
over-engineered status of ebXML in particular is very reminiscent of Open
Systems Interconnection (OSI) networking and how it lost out to the
Internet's iterative "good enough" approach, which has been proven time and

Web Services Fragmentation Wars Begin (COM-16-3650)
Sun appears to still feel the pain from its early snub regarding Web
services and seems to take every opportunity to make much out of little over
IBM's partial ownership of patents on ebXML. Sun has continually tried to
change the subject by bringing up ebXML as a more-robust specification for
Web services. As such, Sun has been anything but a victim in these areas.
Gartner feels that ebXML does not represent practical Web services today,
and thus largely misses the point of vendors advocating simplicity until
enterprises learn the basics.

Q&A: What to Expect From Web Services Now ... and Later (QA-16-6289)
Aren't more-specific standards (such as ebXML) needed for successful
interenterprise adoption of Web services? For example, how would an order be
sent without a specific definition of what an order is?
Standards such as ebXML are needed for constructs such as orders and other
complex, higher-level business-to-business (B2B) interactions. However,
these are more the domain of B2B standards, such as RosettaNet and ebXML,
rather than Web services. There is no concept of "an order" in Web services;
the building blocks are much simpler. Over time, B2B implementations will
increasingly run with Web services technologies as their underpinning.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Repko [mailto:brian_repko@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 2:56 AM
To: ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: [ebxml-dev] Gartner and ebXML

ebXML developers:

Please forward to the marketing forum if more appropriate
to be there, but I just read through all the presentations
that are on the latest Gartner CD for Application Integration.
There was little to no mention of ebXML even in spots where
it should be mentioned ("there is no standard for reliable
messaging with web services").

ebXML is clearly NOT winning mindshare with Gartner and if
you don't get to them, then you don't get to people that can
make business decisions about it.

Brian Repko

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