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Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] Gartner and ebXML

Thank you very much, but I wouldn't fault Gartner.  This definition has all 
the marks of being a fairly low value, greatest common denominator 
consensus definition that was the best that competing interests could 
hammer out in committee.  What's wrong with it?  Here goes:

It is so general as to cover almost anything using XML on the internet in 
almost any fashion.  There has been a debate in the community about whether 
or not "web services" really has anything to do with the web, since some 
web service resources are only accessible via IP address and port number 
and not via a URL, URLs being the hyperlinked essence of the current 
Web.  W3C neatly punted on this issue by saying that the application can be 
identified by a URI, which of course can be a URL which points to something 
or a URN which is only a name.

How about "capable of being defined, described, and discovered by XML 
artifacts" - I can describe nearly anything using an appropriate XML based 
language.   Being "discovered" by an XML artifact is somewhat of a 
nonsequiter.  How does an instance document do discovery?  Can a schema or 
stylesheet do discovery?

Let's look at "internet-based" protocols.  Does Kermit run over a telnet 
session classify as an internet based protocol?

The commonly held definition promoted in the trade press equates Web 
Services with XML, SOAP, and UDDI.  That's still pretty fuzzy, but more 
specific than this blurb that covers only one of the three.

Sorry, but I don't find even the W3C very enlightening in this area.  I'm 
usually not a big defender of Gartner, but don't beat up on them for this!

(Isn't it nice to know that Mike can rag on about something other than ebXML?)



At 12:35 PM 9/10/02 -0700, Peter Kacandes wrote:
>Its funny that Gartner likes to talk about standards, but is clueless when it
>comes to the standard definition of a web service:
>  | Definition: A Web service is a software application identified by a URI,
>  | whose interfaces and binding are capable of being defined, described and
>  | discovered by XML artifacts and supports direct interactions with other
>  | software applications using XML based messages via internet-based
>  | protocols
>  |
>  | http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-wsa-reqs-20020429#N100CB
> >Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:20:00 -0500
> >From: Brian Repko <brian_repko@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: RE: [ebxml-dev] Gartner and ebXML
> >X-Originating-IP: []
> >To: steve.capell@redwahoo.com, ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org
> >MIME-version: 1.0
> >List-Owner: <mailto:ebxml-dev-help@lists.ebxml.org>
> >List-Post: <mailto:ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>
> >List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>,
> >List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ebxml.org/ob/adm.pl>,
> >List-Archive: <http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/>
> >List-Help: <http://lists.ebxml.org/elists/admin.shtml>,
> >List-Id: <ebxml-dev.lists.ebxml.org>
> >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2002 16:20:01.0406 (UTC)
> >
> >Steve,
> >
> >Thanks for the selected excerpts.  However, in looking again
> >through the material, there are lots of discussions on B2B
> >scenarios for web services and again, ebXML does not come
> >up.  I did find a reference to ebMS but that was the only
> >part of ebXML that came up.  That reference is in a presentation
> >(A7 for those that have it too!) by Jess Thompson and Wes Rishel
> >that discusses  standardization of semantics and never mentions
> >Core Components (and yes, I realize that that is not *technically*
> >a part of ebXML).  It is in fact comparing RosettaNet PIPs
> >against BPMI (ignoring external vs internal workflow) and never
> >mentions BPSS.  It discusses UDDI (with caution) but never
> >mentions RegRep.
> >
> >For it's part it clearly supports ebMS...but it stops there
> >and never mentions other parts of the framework when their
> >direct counterparts and solution space is being addressed.
> >
> >It is also a bit upsetting that in a seminar with 29 presentations
> >on application integration, that not one describes the ebXML
> >framework - OSI comparison or not - Gartner should at least describe
> >the business problems that ebXML was designed to solve.  Perhaps
> >that is how it gets marketed.
> >
> >My .02 USD
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
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>Peter Kacandes
>Sr. Product Manager, Java XML APIs      phone number:   408 276 7139, X17139
>Java Software Products                  email:  peter.kacandes@sun.com
>The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS.
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Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting

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