David,
I was agreeing with your concerns until I hit the last sentence. Let's
not
confuse the business model for producing ebXML products with the business
model for using them. Let's not confuse the ebXML technical model with
whether ebXML should be open source. There is nothing in the ebXML
technical model or anywhere else preventing anyone from producing open
source ebXML products.
On the other hand, I guess ebXML-dev is a good soapbox for a plea for open
source.
Regards,
Marty
At 10:07 PM 7/15/2004, david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
>Stephen,
>
>I don't know. I try to stay away from Government issues as they seem to
smack
>of
>corruption to where I am standing. Millions of dollars have been taken
>from tax
>payers to fund e-commerce initiatives in Australia, and what are the
>results ?.
>The money seems to have dissapeared into politicians and their friends
back
>pockets. Don't ask me, I didn't see anything!
>
>I'm sure this isn't unique, the whole dot com thing was even bigger and
worse,
>except when it was payday, and then it was quite good. But I think it's
>back to
>reality now and that's much better.
>
>We see a lot of waste in business with faxing purchase orders. As you
know
>they
>cost about $0.12c to send each one. Most of the companies I work with
send
>thousands upon thousands each year.
>
>If these could be delivered for say 6c each and some sort of split for
the
>consultants/IT integrators, then I think this would be quite a good
model.
>
>The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that high
in the
>real business world. We are finding that .PDFs are a better starting
point for
>purchase-orders and then offer XML/EDI as an additional thing. At least
people
>can
>
>The only real alternative is to embed the logo of the company into the
XML
>document so that at least when it is received, it has a vague
resememblance to
>a real world business document. Otherwise XML/ebXML is quite useless.
>
>I do agree that for ebxml to succeed, it needs to be more inclusive.
Mobile
>phone shops survive only because they receive ongoing commissions from
the
>telephone companies based on call charges from the phone that was sold.
imho
>this is the only way that something like ebxml can actually grow and
>survive in
>the business world. People lose interest if there is nothing in it for
them.
>
>VANs had there time, and are still going. But ebxml needs not only a
solid
>technical model, but a sound business model. Why can't it be like open
source
>where everybody can make money out of it?
>
>David
>
>Quoting Stephen GOULD <sggould@oic.org>:
>
> > David - you are right. Only Telecos, Banks and ISPs make money
> > out of e-Commerce. IT professionals cannot earn a living out of
> > e-commerce until we change the rules whereby people are paid for
> > contributing and participating.
> >
> > This need for this change has been made in a submission to the
> > Australian Government re the Aus-USA-Free Trade Agreement
> > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs/ZXAAECS1.htm
> >
> > The full details of the submissions by the OIC XML & E-commerce
> > Special Interest Group [XZIG] to the Senate Inquiry on the FTA can
> > be reviewed on
> > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs
> >
> > XZIG is concerned that as the US Government uses ANSI-X12 and
> > Australia has a treaty obligation to use ISO Standards (EDIFACT)
> > there is:
> >
> > 1 going to be an enormous invisible ISP translation cost for SMEs
> >
> > 2 time and date conflicts with the many varieties of ISO 8601
> >
> > 3 concerns ebXML has not provided a solution for a simple
> > company name and address format that can be used by all
> > applications
> >
> > This is why in 2002 XZIG members developed an XML Standard
> > Government Tender template because there are 8 different tender
> > formats with Australian State Government
> > http://www.smeems.net/cpr/be/3she/a2eaesp4.htm
> >
> > This was submitted to ebXML Australia in 2002 but as far as we know it
> > was not forwarded to the appropriate group for consideration
> >
> > Government tenders are the first step of the Government e-business
> > process hence the need for a standard that all Government tenders
> > use
> > http://www.oic.org/guest.htm
> >
> > NEXT STEPS
> >
> > I would appreciate any feed-back on:
> >
> > 1 is an e-credits system acceptable as part of e-commerce
contracts
> >
> > 2 how many US Government States use ANSI-X12
> >
> > 3 any people prepared to work on implementing a standard ebXML
> > e-tender system as part of the Aus-USA-FTA
> >
> > If you would like to work on projects or any other Australian
> > projects you are required to be a member of the Open Interchange
> > Consortium
> > http://www.oic.org/3d1.htm
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Stephen GOULD
> > Chair - Management Committee
> > XML & E-COMMERCE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP
> > OPEN INTERCHANGE CONSORTIUM
> >
> > E: sggould@oic.org
> > M: 0416-009-468
> > T: {61}(2) 9953-7412
> > W: http://www.oic.org/3a4a.htm
> >
> >
> > On 15 Jul 04, at 9:53, davidlyon wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for replying to my earlier questions. It's making much more
sense
> > now.
> > >
> > > My humble opinion is that there needs to be some better ways of
making
> > money
> > > with ebxml than there is today.
> > >
> > > For example, with open source linux, I can build a file server based
on
> > linux
> > > and then supply it to my customers and get paid. Do some
> modifications and
> > get
> > > paid for those. I make money the whole way along with linux.
> > >
> > > With ebxml there is no way to do the same thing; for a developer or
for a
> > > consultant; whatever. That's the problem.
> > >
> > > Yes there are some free poducts, like the sun registry and others,
> but they
> > are
> > > not really in a "saleable" form that I can give customers.
> > >
> > > There is also no central ebxml registry yet, for registering
companies.
> > Even if
> > > it was $10, it would give something to sell which would then help
the
> world
> > go
> > > round.
> > >
> > > Such a registry if it did exist, would need a code of conduct, so if
one
> > company
> > > sold an ebxml, all the other companies wouldn't just come along and
take
> > the
> > > customer. These are real issues for anybody trying to sell ebxml
> software.
> > > Interoperability can be a two edge sword.
> > >
> > > There is also a severe lack of programming components.
> > >
> > > Why does one have to have a whole ebxml stack? why are there no
ebxml
> > activeX
> > > components that can be thrown onto a VB or Delphi App?
> > >
> > > I understand that ebxml might have started as a grand plan for
> everything,
> > but
> > > it only needs to suffice as an electronic commerce framework where
IT
> > > professionals accross the world can make some money.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting "Monica J. Martin" <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>:
> > >
> > > > Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Did you mean GSA or GXA? How do we know that any given stack is
> > > > >"complete", what is the criteria to leave something out?
> > > > >
> > > > >JJ-
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > mm1: Joe, what is the GXA umbrella anyway?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
> <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
> > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
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> manager:
> >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
The
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> >
> >
> >
> > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
The
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>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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*************************************
Martin Sachs
standards architect
Cyclone Commerce
msachs@cyclonecommerce.com
The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
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