From: "William H Hutchinson" <WHHutchinson@armstrong.com>
To: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:02:31 -0400
I don't often post on this list because I don't feel qualified compared to the august assemblage...but I can't resist in this case.
I think we live in a marvellous period in world history where among many other advances in medicine, space travel, etc. we have a fortuitous alignment of bright minds, ubiquitous browsers, open source software, cheap bandwidth, and so forth. that makes possible the XML revolutions which just seem to me to be so fantastic.
Why hasn't it gone further then? Why does David see those university graduates pumping gas?
A number of reasons IMHO -
1) We're just finally REALLY starting the climb out of the Gartner Group's trough of disillusionment for XML integration technology and I'll bet we've got at least 24-36 more months before we get very far up towards GG's plateau of productivity
2) There are too darned many choices in XML integration, they've not rationalized yet, I don't exactly see a force to drive the rationalization other than maybe some 800 pound gorillas like GM or DOD really truly following through on significant program efforts
3) As David puts it well, the reality on the street at least in our vertical (building products) is that the majority of the constituents - the B2B partners, the product management folks, the sales folks, etc. etc. are still light years away from being ready to deal with this great new technology; to pick on just one, albeit important one, the B2B partners, I contend that the limiting factor by far is the ability and willingness of ERP system vendors to change their core code to embrace XML integration technology, and in addition to costs barriers and the conflict between openness and holding customer base and so forth, it also run right into my point #2 - too darned many standards to choose from. A heck of a lot my world runs on PDFs, emailed spreadsheets, EDI, and FTP.
This too shall pass, I believe we are climbing towards that plateau, but everyone's got to keep the faith a while longer. And maybe talk about how to move the bar on some of these problems.
Bill Hutchinson
William H. Hutchinson
Senior Technical Architect
Armstrong Information Technology Services
(V) 717 396 4862 (C) 717 917 7115 (F) 717 396 6123
whhutchinson@armstrong.com
"Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
07/21/2004 10:10 AM
To: david.lyon@computergrid.net
cc: ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org, (bcc: William H Hutchinson/Lancaster/Corporate/Armstrong)
Subject: Re: ebxml challenges...
david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
>
> Hi Joseph,
>
> Forgive my frank way of answering; I'm just answering the question clearly; it's
> a good question.
>
> Go visit one hundred businesses in virtually any business district and take the
> first ones that you find. 95% won't even have an IT department.
>
> Usually the sales reps take out the price lists. Depending on the size of the
> company and the industry, there might be anywhere from a few thousand products
> up to 200,000. They usually have no idea what they are doing - that's why they
> usually have to have the latest notebook. And why is it that their flashy new
> polophonic phone rings every time you ask them a question. No time to answer
> technical questions.
>
> Anyway, Price lists, even from international companies like Bosch as just one
> example,are mostly distributed in PDF format. They're good to look at, but
> would dissapoint users that have to get prices or information out of them on a
> regular basis.
>
> These days, I would suggest, that most companies are distributing information in
> PDF format.
>
> XML is a practically unknown format.
Thanks for the clarification. My experience is the complete opposite.
How would you respond to that, given that we are on the same planet? :)
Kind Regards,
Joe Chiusano
Booz | Allen | Hamilton
Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> Sure there are software companies out there that write and provide quite good
> XML solutions. Especially for the largest of companies.
>
> But for the rest, that is the 95% of the business world, I would suggest that
> XML is totally unknown.
>
> So what happened to all the XML books?
>
> Not all the young people that have gone to universities, learnt about XML etc
> have been able to find IT jobs in the business world. Some I know with Masters
> degrees at IT actually now work at service stations and do a fine job behind
> the counters. And I'm not trying to be funny, but there are some that have
> given up trying to find IT jobs and have decided to look elsewhere. Even a
> masters degree in IT doesn't garentee a job these days - it can make it
> harder.
>
> So that's my two cents on what's happened to a large percentage of XML skills.
>
> Not all of course, the good ones are still employed and working on. But there
> certainly has been a lot of xml skills head off into other areas where they
> probably will never be heard from again.
>
> David
>
> Quoting Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>:
>
> > <Quote>
> > The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that high
> > in the real business world.
> > </Quote>
> >
> > Please clarify what you mean by the "real business world", as this list
> > is comprised of folks worldwide, in multiple industries and governments,
> > in small businesses, large businesses, medium businesses, etc.
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Joe Chiusano
> > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> >
> > david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Stephen,
> > >
> > > I don't know. I try to stay away from Government issues as they seem to
> > smack
> > > of
> > > corruption to where I am standing. Millions of dollars have been taken from
> > tax
> > > payers to fund e-commerce initiatives in Australia, and what are the
> > results ?.
> > > The money seems to have dissapeared into politicians and their friends
> > back
> > > pockets. Don't ask me, I didn't see anything!
> > >
> > > I'm sure this isn't unique, the whole dot com thing was even bigger and
> > worse,
> > > except when it was payday, and then it was quite good. But I think it's
> > back to
> > > reality now and that's much better.
> > >
> > > We see a lot of waste in business with faxing purchase orders. As you know
> > they
> > > cost about $0.12c to send each one. Most of the companies I work with send
> > > thousands upon thousands each year.
> > >
> > > If these could be delivered for say 6c each and some sort of split for the
> > > consultants/IT integrators, then I think this would be quite a good model.
> > >
> > > The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that high in
> > the
> > > real business world. We are finding that .PDFs are a better starting point
> > for
> > > purchase-orders and then offer XML/EDI as an additional thing. At least
> > people
> > > can
> > >
> > > The only real alternative is to embed the logo of the company into the XML
> > > document so that at least when it is received, it has a vague resememblance
> > to
> > > a real world business document. Otherwise XML/ebXML is quite useless.
> > >
> > > I do agree that for ebxml to succeed, it needs to be more inclusive.
> > Mobile
> > > phone shops survive only because they receive ongoing commissions from the
> > > telephone companies based on call charges from the phone that was sold.
> > imho
> > > this is the only way that something like ebxml can actually grow and
> > survive in
> > > the business world. People lose interest if there is nothing in it for
> > them.
> > >
> > > VANs had there time, and are still going. But ebxml needs not only a solid
> > > technical model, but a sound business model. Why can't it be like open
> > source
> > > where everybody can make money out of it?
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Quoting Stephen GOULD <sggould@oic.org>:
> > >
> > > > David - you are right. Only Telecos, Banks and ISPs make money
> > > > out of e-Commerce. IT professionals cannot earn a living out of
> > > > e-commerce until we change the rules whereby people are paid for
> > > > contributing and participating.
> > > >
> > > > This need for this change has been made in a submission to the
> > > > Australian Government re the Aus-USA-Free Trade Agreement
> > > > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs/ZXAAECS1.htm
> > > >
> > > > The full details of the submissions by the OIC XML & E-commerce
> > > > Special Interest Group [XZIG] to the Senate Inquiry on the FTA can
> > > > be reviewed on
> > > > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs
> > > >
> > > > XZIG is concerned that as the US Government uses ANSI-X12 and
> > > > Australia has a treaty obligation to use ISO Standards (EDIFACT)
> > > > there is:
> > > >
> > > > 1 going to be an enormous invisible ISP translation cost for SMEs
> > > >
> > > > 2 time and date conflicts with the many varieties of ISO 8601
> > > >
> > > > 3 concerns ebXML has not provided a solution for a simple
> > > > company name and address format that can be used by all
> > > > applications
> > > >
> > > > This is why in 2002 XZIG members developed an XML Standard
> > > > Government Tender template because there are 8 different tender
> > > > formats with Australian State Government
> > > > http://www.smeems.net/cpr/be/3she/a2eaesp4.htm
> > > >
> > > > This was submitted to ebXML Australia in 2002 but as far as we know it
> > > > was not forwarded to the appropriate group for consideration
> > > >
> > > > Government tenders are the first step of the Government e-business
> > > > process hence the need for a standard that all Government tenders
> > > > use
> > > > http://www.oic.org/guest.htm
> > > >
> > > > NEXT STEPS
> > > >
> > > > I would appreciate any feed-back on:
> > > >
> > > > 1 is an e-credits system acceptable as part of e-commerce contracts
> > > >
> > > > 2 how many US Government States use ANSI-X12
> > > >
> > > > 3 any people prepared to work on implementing a standard ebXML
> > > > e-tender system as part of the Aus-USA-FTA
> > > >
> > > > If you would like to work on projects or any other Australian
> > > > projects you are required to be a member of the Open Interchange
> > > > Consortium
> > > > http://www.oic.org/3d1.htm
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > >
> > > > Stephen GOULD
> > > > Chair - Management Committee
> > > > XML & E-COMMERCE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP
> > > > OPEN INTERCHANGE CONSORTIUM
> > > >
> > > > E: sggould@oic.org
> > > > M: 0416-009-468
> > > > T: {61}(2) 9953-7412
> > > > W: http://www.oic.org/3a4a.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 15 Jul 04, at 9:53, davidlyon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for replying to my earlier questions. It's making much more
> > sense
> > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > My humble opinion is that there needs to be some better ways of making
> > > > money
> > > > > with ebxml than there is today.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, with open source linux, I can build a file server based
> > on
> > > > linux
> > > > > and then supply it to my customers and get paid. Do some modifications
> > and
> > > > get
> > > > > paid for those. I make money the whole way along with linux.
> > > > >
> > > > > With ebxml there is no way to do the same thing; for a developer or for
> > a
> > > > > consultant; whatever. That's the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes there are some free poducts, like the sun registry and others, but
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > not really in a "saleable" form that I can give customers.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is also no central ebxml registry yet, for registering
> > companies.
> > > > Even if
> > > > > it was $10, it would give something to sell which would then help the
> > world
> > > > go
> > > > > round.
> > > > >
> > > > > Such a registry if it did exist, would need a code of conduct, so if
> > one
> > > > company
> > > > > sold an ebxml, all the other companies wouldn't just come along and
> > take
> > > > the
> > > > > customer. These are real issues for anybody trying to sell ebxml
> > software.
> > > > > Interoperability can be a two edge sword.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is also a severe lack of programming components.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why does one have to have a whole ebxml stack? why are there no ebxml
> > > > activeX
> > > > > components that can be thrown onto a VB or Delphi App?
> > > > >
> > > > > I understand that ebxml might have started as a grand plan for
> > everything,
> > > > but
> > > > > it only needs to suffice as an electronic commerce framework where IT
> > > > > professionals accross the world can make some money.
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Quoting "Monica J. Martin" <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Did you mean GSA or GXA? How do we know that any given stack is
> > > > > > >"complete", what is the criteria to leave something out?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >JJ-
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > mm1: Joe, what is the GXA umbrella anyway?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
> > The
> > > > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
> > manager:
> > > >
> > > > > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
> > The
> > > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
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> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
> > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
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> >
> > --
> > Kind Regards,
> > Joseph Chiusano
> > Associate
> > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> >
> > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
> > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription manager:
> > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
--
Kind Regards,
Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz | Allen | Hamilton
The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
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