david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
>
> Hi Joseph,
>
> Forgive my frank way of answering; I'm just answering the question
clearly; it's
> a good question.
>
> Go visit one hundred businesses in virtually any business district and
take the
> first ones that you find. 95% won't even have an IT department.
>
> Usually the sales reps take out the price lists. Depending on the size
of the
> company and the industry, there might be anywhere from a few thousand
products
> up to 200,000. They usually have no idea what they are doing - that's
why they
> usually have to have the latest notebook. And why is it that their
flashy new
> polophonic phone rings every time you ask them a question. No time to
answer
> technical questions.
>
> Anyway, Price lists, even from international companies like Bosch as
just one
> example,are mostly distributed in PDF format. They're good to look at,
but
> would dissapoint users that have to get prices or information out of
them on a
> regular basis.
>
> These days, I would suggest, that most companies are distributing
information in
> PDF format.
>
> XML is a practically unknown format.
Thanks for the clarification. My experience is the complete opposite.
How would you respond to that, given that we are on the same planet? :)
Kind Regards,
Joe Chiusano
Booz | Allen | Hamilton
Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> Sure there are software companies out there that write and provide quite
good
> XML solutions. Especially for the largest of companies.
>
> But for the rest, that is the 95% of the business world, I would suggest
that
> XML is totally unknown.
>
> So what happened to all the XML books?
>
> Not all the young people that have gone to universities, learnt about
XML etc
> have been able to find IT jobs in the business world. Some I know with
Masters
> degrees at IT actually now work at service stations and do a fine job
behind
> the counters. And I'm not trying to be funny, but there are some that
have
> given up trying to find IT jobs and have decided to look elsewhere. Even
a
> masters degree in IT doesn't garentee a job these days - it can make it
> harder.
>
> So that's my two cents on what's happened to a large percentage of XML
skills.
>
> Not all of course, the good ones are still employed and working on. But
there
> certainly has been a lot of xml skills head off into other areas where
they
> probably will never be heard from again.
>
> David
>
> Quoting Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>:
>
> > <Quote>
> > The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that
high
> > in the real business world.
> > </Quote>
> >
> > Please clarify what you mean by the "real business world", as this
list
> > is comprised of folks worldwide, in multiple industries and
governments,
> > in small businesses, large businesses, medium businesses, etc.
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Joe Chiusano
> > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> >
> > david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Stephen,
> > >
> > > I don't know. I try to stay away from Government issues as they seem
to
> > smack
> > > of
> > > corruption to where I am standing. Millions of dollars have been
taken from
> > tax
> > > payers to fund e-commerce initiatives in Australia, and what are the
> > results ?.
> > > The money seems to have dissapeared into politicians and their
friends
> > back
> > > pockets. Don't ask me, I didn't see anything!
> > >
> > > I'm sure this isn't unique, the whole dot com thing was even bigger
and
> > worse,
> > > except when it was payday, and then it was quite good. But I think
it's
> > back to
> > > reality now and that's much better.
> > >
> > > We see a lot of waste in business with faxing purchase orders. As
you know
> > they
> > > cost about $0.12c to send each one. Most of the companies I work
with send
> > > thousands upon thousands each year.
> > >
> > > If these could be delivered for say 6c each and some sort of split
for the
> > > consultants/IT integrators, then I think this would be quite a good
model.
> > >
> > > The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that
high in
> > the
> > > real business world. We are finding that .PDFs are a better starting
point
> > for
> > > purchase-orders and then offer XML/EDI as an additional thing. At
least
> > people
> > > can
> > >
> > > The only real alternative is to embed the logo of the company into
the XML
> > > document so that at least when it is received, it has a vague
resememblance
> > to
> > > a real world business document. Otherwise XML/ebXML is quite
useless.
> > >
> > > I do agree that for ebxml to succeed, it needs to be more inclusive.
> > Mobile
> > > phone shops survive only because they receive ongoing commissions
from the
> > > telephone companies based on call charges from the phone that was
sold.
> > imho
> > > this is the only way that something like ebxml can actually grow and
> > survive in
> > > the business world. People lose interest if there is nothing in it
for
> > them.
> > >
> > > VANs had there time, and are still going. But ebxml needs not only a
solid
> > > technical model, but a sound business model. Why can't it be like
open
> > source
> > > where everybody can make money out of it?
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Quoting Stephen GOULD <sggould@oic.org>:
> > >
> > > > David - you are right. Only Telecos, Banks and ISPs make money
> > > > out of e-Commerce. IT professionals cannot earn a living out of
> > > > e-commerce until we change the rules whereby people are paid for
> > > > contributing and participating.
> > > >
> > > > This need for this change has been made in a submission to the
> > > > Australian Government re the Aus-USA-Free Trade Agreement
> > > > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs/ZXAAECS1.htm
> > > >
> > > > The full details of the submissions by the OIC XML & E-commerce
> > > > Special Interest Group [XZIG] to the Senate Inquiry on the FTA can
> > > > be reviewed on
> > > > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs
> > > >
> > > > XZIG is concerned that as the US Government uses ANSI-X12 and
> > > > Australia has a treaty obligation to use ISO Standards (EDIFACT)
> > > > there is:
> > > >
> > > > 1 going to be an enormous invisible ISP translation cost for
SMEs
> > > >
> > > > 2 time and date conflicts with the many varieties of ISO 8601
> > > >
> > > > 3 concerns ebXML has not provided a solution for a simple
> > > > company name and address format that can be used by all
> > > > applications
> > > >
> > > > This is why in 2002 XZIG members developed an XML Standard
> > > > Government Tender template because there are 8 different tender
> > > > formats with Australian State Government
> > > > http://www.smeems.net/cpr/be/3she/a2eaesp4.htm
> > > >
> > > > This was submitted to ebXML Australia in 2002 but as far as we
know it
> > > > was not forwarded to the appropriate group for consideration
> > > >
> > > > Government tenders are the first step of the Government e-business
> > > > process hence the need for a standard that all Government tenders
> > > > use
> > > > http://www.oic.org/guest.htm
> > > >
> > > > NEXT STEPS
> > > >
> > > > I would appreciate any feed-back on:
> > > >
> > > > 1 is an e-credits system acceptable as part of e-commerce
contracts
> > > >
> > > > 2 how many US Government States use ANSI-X12
> > > >
> > > > 3 any people prepared to work on implementing a standard ebXML
> > > > e-tender system as part of the Aus-USA-FTA
> > > >
> > > > If you would like to work on projects or any other
Australian
> > > > projects you are required to be a member of the Open
Interchange
> > > > Consortium
> > > > http://www.oic.org/3d1.htm
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > >
> > > > Stephen GOULD
> > > > Chair - Management Committee
> > > > XML & E-COMMERCE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP
> > > > OPEN INTERCHANGE CONSORTIUM
> > > >
> > > > E: sggould@oic.org
> > > > M: 0416-009-468
> > > > T: {61}(2) 9953-7412
> > > > W: http://www.oic.org/3a4a.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 15 Jul 04, at 9:53, davidlyon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for replying to my earlier questions. It's making much
more
> > sense
> > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > My humble opinion is that there needs to be some better ways of
making
> > > > money
> > > > > with ebxml than there is today.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, with open source linux, I can build a file server
based
> > on
> > > > linux
> > > > > and then supply it to my customers and get paid. Do some
modifications
> > and
> > > > get
> > > > > paid for those. I make money the whole way along with linux.
> > > > >
> > > > > With ebxml there is no way to do the same thing; for a developer
or for
> > a
> > > > > consultant; whatever. That's the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes there are some free poducts, like the sun registry and
others, but
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > not really in a "saleable" form that I can give customers.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is also no central ebxml registry yet, for registering
> > companies.
> > > > Even if
> > > > > it was $10, it would give something to sell which would then
help the
> > world
> > > > go
> > > > > round.
> > > > >
> > > > > Such a registry if it did exist, would need a code of conduct,
so if
> > one
> > > > company
> > > > > sold an ebxml, all the other companies wouldn't just come along
and
> > take
> > > > the
> > > > > customer. These are real issues for anybody trying to sell ebxml
> > software.
> > > > > Interoperability can be a two edge sword.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is also a severe lack of programming components.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why does one have to have a whole ebxml stack? why are there no
ebxml
> > > > activeX
> > > > > components that can be thrown onto a VB or Delphi App?
> > > > >
> > > > > I understand that ebxml might have started as a grand plan for
> > everything,
> > > > but
> > > > > it only needs to suffice as an electronic commerce framework
where IT
> > > > > professionals accross the world can make some money.
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Quoting "Monica J. Martin" <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Did you mean GSA or GXA? How do we know that any given stack
is
> > > > > > >"complete", what is the criteria to leave something out?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >JJ-
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > mm1: Joe, what is the GXA umbrella anyway?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
<http://www.oasis-open.org>
> > The
> > > > > > list archives are at
http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the
subscription
> > manager:
> > > >
> > > > > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
<http://www.oasis-open.org>
> > The
> > > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
> > manager:
> > > > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
<http://www.oasis-open.org> The
> > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
manager:
> > > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
The
> > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
manager:
> > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> >
> > --
> > Kind Regards,
> > Joseph Chiusano
> > Associate
> > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> >
> > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
The
> > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
manager:
> > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
--
Kind Regards,
Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz | Allen | Hamilton
The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The
list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription manager:
<http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
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