Quoting Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>:
> Thanks for the clarification. My experience is the complete opposite.
> How would you respond to that, given that we are on the same planet? :)
Very simple. maybe we live in parrallel universes :-)
but if you saying; 95% of your customers have IT departments. Sales reps
don't
have notebooks or mobile phones. And nobody uses PDF files and all IT
graduates
get the IT jobs of their dreams well then that's good to hear.
last night I saw a funny show on TV where an american family (could have
been
from any developed country) went and lived in Africa for a few weeks. Did
they
hate it or what. The women and kids were in tears at times but the men did
ok.
It was pretty rough. One interesting comment was "Do people still live
like
this?" because it was very much a ape-man like lifestyle.
If you ever do get the chance to visit other people in the world that are
less
fortunate; do take it. You'll be surprised what a cheerful place it can
be, even
if the latest model camera phone would cost them 6 months salary and they
would
be out of range anyway.
> david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
> >
> > Hi Joseph,
> >
> > Forgive my frank way of answering; I'm just answering the question
clearly;
> it's
> > a good question.
> >
> > Go visit one hundred businesses in virtually any business district and
take
> the
> > first ones that you find. 95% won't even have an IT department.
> >
> > Usually the sales reps take out the price lists. Depending on the size
of
> the
> > company and the industry, there might be anywhere from a few thousand
> products
> > up to 200,000. They usually have no idea what they are doing - that's
why
> they
> > usually have to have the latest notebook. And why is it that their
flashy
> new
> > polophonic phone rings every time you ask them a question. No time to
> answer
> > technical questions.
> >
> > Anyway, Price lists, even from international companies like Bosch as
just
> one
> > example,are mostly distributed in PDF format. They're good to look at,
but
> > would dissapoint users that have to get prices or information out of
them
> on a
> > regular basis.
> >
> > These days, I would suggest, that most companies are distributing
> information in
> > PDF format.
> >
> > XML is a practically unknown format.
>
> Thanks for the clarification. My experience is the complete opposite.
> How would you respond to that, given that we are on the same planet? :)
>
> Kind Regards,
> Joe Chiusano
> Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
>
> > Sure there are software companies out there that write and provide
quite
> good
> > XML solutions. Especially for the largest of companies.
> >
> > But for the rest, that is the 95% of the business world, I would
suggest
> that
> > XML is totally unknown.
> >
> > So what happened to all the XML books?
> >
> > Not all the young people that have gone to universities, learnt about
XML
> etc
> > have been able to find IT jobs in the business world. Some I know with
> Masters
> > degrees at IT actually now work at service stations and do a fine job
> behind
> > the counters. And I'm not trying to be funny, but there are some that
have
> > given up trying to find IT jobs and have decided to look elsewhere.
Even a
> > masters degree in IT doesn't garentee a job these days - it can make
it
> > harder.
> >
> > So that's my two cents on what's happened to a large percentage of XML
> skills.
> >
> > Not all of course, the good ones are still employed and working on.
But
> there
> > certainly has been a lot of xml skills head off into other areas where
> they
> > probably will never be heard from again.
> >
> > David
> >
> > Quoting Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>:
> >
> > > <Quote>
> > > The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that
high
> > > in the real business world.
> > > </Quote>
> > >
> > > Please clarify what you mean by the "real business world", as this
list
> > > is comprised of folks worldwide, in multiple industries and
governments,
> > > in small businesses, large businesses, medium businesses, etc.
> > >
> > > Kind Regards,
> > > Joe Chiusano
> > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > > Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> > >
> > > david.lyon@computergrid.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Stephen,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know. I try to stay away from Government issues as they
seem
> to
> > > smack
> > > > of
> > > > corruption to where I am standing. Millions of dollars have been
taken
> from
> > > tax
> > > > payers to fund e-commerce initiatives in Australia, and what are
the
> > > results ?.
> > > > The money seems to have dissapeared into politicians and their
friends
> > > back
> > > > pockets. Don't ask me, I didn't see anything!
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure this isn't unique, the whole dot com thing was even
bigger
> and
> > > worse,
> > > > except when it was payday, and then it was quite good. But I think
> it's
> > > back to
> > > > reality now and that's much better.
> > > >
> > > > We see a lot of waste in business with faxing purchase orders. As
you
> know
> > > they
> > > > cost about $0.12c to send each one. Most of the companies I work
with
> send
> > > > thousands upon thousands each year.
> > > >
> > > > If these could be delivered for say 6c each and some sort of split
for
> the
> > > > consultants/IT integrators, then I think this would be quite a
good
> model.
> > > >
> > > > The other issue is that the interest for XML documents is not that
high
> in
> > > the
> > > > real business world. We are finding that .PDFs are a better
starting
> point
> > > for
> > > > purchase-orders and then offer XML/EDI as an additional thing. At
> least
> > > people
> > > > can
> > > >
> > > > The only real alternative is to embed the logo of the company into
the
> XML
> > > > document so that at least when it is received, it has a vague
> resememblance
> > > to
> > > > a real world business document. Otherwise XML/ebXML is quite
useless.
> > > >
> > > > I do agree that for ebxml to succeed, it needs to be more
inclusive.
> > > Mobile
> > > > phone shops survive only because they receive ongoing commissions
from
> the
> > > > telephone companies based on call charges from the phone that was
> sold.
> > > imho
> > > > this is the only way that something like ebxml can actually grow
and
> > > survive in
> > > > the business world. People lose interest if there is nothing in it
for
> > > them.
> > > >
> > > > VANs had there time, and are still going. But ebxml needs not only
a
> solid
> > > > technical model, but a sound business model. Why can't it be like
open
> > > source
> > > > where everybody can make money out of it?
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Stephen GOULD <sggould@oic.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > David - you are right. Only Telecos, Banks and ISPs make money
> > > > > out of e-Commerce. IT professionals cannot earn a living out of
> > > > > e-commerce until we change the rules whereby people are paid
for
> > > > > contributing and participating.
> > > > >
> > > > > This need for this change has been made in a submission to the
> > > > > Australian Government re the Aus-USA-Free Trade Agreement
> > > > > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs/ZXAAECS1.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > The full details of the submissions by the OIC XML & E-commerce
> > > > > Special Interest Group [XZIG] to the Senate Inquiry on the FTA
can
> > > > > be reviewed on
> > > > > http://www.oic.org/z/XZIG/A/cs
> > > > >
> > > > > XZIG is concerned that as the US Government uses ANSI-X12 and
> > > > > Australia has a treaty obligation to use ISO Standards (EDIFACT)
> > > > > there is:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 going to be an enormous invisible ISP translation cost for
> SMEs
> > > > >
> > > > > 2 time and date conflicts with the many varieties of ISO
8601
> > > > >
> > > > > 3 concerns ebXML has not provided a solution for a simple
> > > > > company name and address format that can be used by all
> > > > > applications
> > > > >
> > > > > This is why in 2002 XZIG members developed an XML Standard
> > > > > Government Tender template because there are 8 different tender
> > > > > formats with Australian State Government
> > > > > http://www.smeems.net/cpr/be/3she/a2eaesp4.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > This was submitted to ebXML Australia in 2002 but as far as we
know
> it
> > > > > was not forwarded to the appropriate group for consideration
> > > > >
> > > > > Government tenders are the first step of the Government
e-business
> > > > > process hence the need for a standard that all Government
tenders
> > > > > use
> > > > > http://www.oic.org/guest.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > NEXT STEPS
> > > > >
> > > > > I would appreciate any feed-back on:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 is an e-credits system acceptable as part of e-commerce
> contracts
> > > > >
> > > > > 2 how many US Government States use ANSI-X12
> > > > >
> > > > > 3 any people prepared to work on implementing a standard
ebXML
> > > > > e-tender system as part of the Aus-USA-FTA
> > > > >
> > > > > If you would like to work on projects or any other
Australian
> > > > > projects you are required to be a member of the Open
> Interchange
> > > > > Consortium
> > > > > http://www.oic.org/3d1.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen GOULD
> > > > > Chair - Management Committee
> > > > > XML & E-COMMERCE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP
> > > > > OPEN INTERCHANGE CONSORTIUM
> > > > >
> > > > > E: sggould@oic.org
> > > > > M: 0416-009-468
> > > > > T: {61}(2) 9953-7412
> > > > > W: http://www.oic.org/3a4a.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 15 Jul 04, at 9:53, davidlyon wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for replying to my earlier questions. It's making much
more
> > > sense
> > > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My humble opinion is that there needs to be some better ways
of
> making
> > > > > money
> > > > > > with ebxml than there is today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example, with open source linux, I can build a file server
> based
> > > on
> > > > > linux
> > > > > > and then supply it to my customers and get paid. Do some
> modifications
> > > and
> > > > > get
> > > > > > paid for those. I make money the whole way along with linux.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With ebxml there is no way to do the same thing; for a
developer or
> for
> > > a
> > > > > > consultant; whatever. That's the problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes there are some free poducts, like the sun registry and
others,
> but
> > > they
> > > > > are
> > > > > > not really in a "saleable" form that I can give customers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is also no central ebxml registry yet, for registering
> > > companies.
> > > > > Even if
> > > > > > it was $10, it would give something to sell which would then
help
> the
> > > world
> > > > > go
> > > > > > round.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Such a registry if it did exist, would need a code of conduct,
so
> if
> > > one
> > > > > company
> > > > > > sold an ebxml, all the other companies wouldn't just come
along
> and
> > > take
> > > > > the
> > > > > > customer. These are real issues for anybody trying to sell
ebxml
> > > software.
> > > > > > Interoperability can be a two edge sword.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is also a severe lack of programming components.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why does one have to have a whole ebxml stack? why are there
no
> ebxml
> > > > > activeX
> > > > > > components that can be thrown onto a VB or Delphi App?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I understand that ebxml might have started as a grand plan for
> > > everything,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > it only needs to suffice as an electronic commerce framework
where
> IT
> > > > > > professionals accross the world can make some money.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Quoting "Monica J. Martin" <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Did you mean GSA or GXA? How do we know that any given
stack is
> > > > > > > >"complete", what is the criteria to leave something out?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >JJ-
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > mm1: Joe, what is the GXA umbrella anyway?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
> <http://www.oasis-open.org>
> > > The
> > > > > > > list archives are at
http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the
subscription
> > > manager:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
> <http://www.oasis-open.org>
> > > The
> > > > > > list archives are at
http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the
subscription
> > > manager:
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
<http://www.oasis-open.org>
> The
> > > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
> manager:
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS
<http://www.oasis-open.org>
> The
> > > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
> manager:
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Kind Regards,
> > > Joseph Chiusano
> > > Associate
> > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > >
> > > The ebxml-dev list is sponsored by OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org>
The
> > > list archives are at http://lists.ebxml.org/archives/ebxml-dev/
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription
manager:
> > > <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Joseph Chiusano
> Associate
> Booz | Allen | Hamilton
>
-------------------------------------------------------
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