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Subject: RE: [ebxml-mktg] Gartner & ebXML again - closure


Thank you for your feedback.  Many others have provided similar comments
- that Gartner does generally present a balanced and fair view of ebXML.
When discussed in the context of B2B interoperability, ebXML tends to
get positive press from Gartner.  However when discussed in the context
of simple webservices, ebXML tends to get the "too complex, OSI of
webservices, will never work" type of press.

I guess we just got unlucky in Sydney with the messages that were
presented at the Gartner conference.  Hopefully Australian government
and industry will be able to put them in context and get on with the job
of supporting open standards such as ebXML for B2B interoperability.

I concur with your comments that we should not be fighting web services
hype.  The technologies are complementary and each have their
appropriate place.  We should support both and continue to drive
awareness in the marketplace.

Thanks & regards,

Steve Capell
Sydney, Australia
Tel : +61 410 437854

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert.Breton@sybase.com [mailto:Robert.Breton@sybase.com] 
Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2002 10:53 AM
To: Steve Capell
Cc: ebxml-mktg@lists.ebxml.org
Subject: Re: [ebxml-mktg] Gartner & ebXML again

I recently participated in the Gartner EAI/WS conference in Chicago, and
did not see a lot of negativity in the positioning of ebXML.   There
definitely are differing opinions within Gartner,, but my experience has
been positive with those analysts who understand the B2B and integration
market spaces.   The challenge facing the ebXML community within the
analyst community is the demonstration of sufficient critical mass in
the market to validate its market acceptance as a standard.

In my view Gartner ,has actually become more positive as the standard
has matured.  We brought a customer to the Gartner EAI/WS conference to
present their implementation of ebXML and received positive feedback.
It's critical that all participants in the ebXML effort continue to
encourage exposure of successes in the marketplace, especially within
the analyst community.  Rather than fighting the Web Services hype
cycle, my view is that we should be better aligning both the technology
and market strategies, and recognize that there will be areas of
misunderstanding or bias that will only be overcome by proven market

I'm sure some have heard the Gartner quote about ebXML as being the "OSI
of Web Services", so I don't want to leave the impression that there is
not a negative viewpoint from some analysts within Gartner.  The
analysts that cover Web Services generally present a less positive
perspective, so I'd recommend that you point customers to analysts more
focused on B2B and EAI issues.

If you're lookiing to specific Gartner analysts to help in presenting a
"fair" view to your customers,  I would encourage you to work with Jess
Thompson, Deborah Hess, Daid McCoy and others who have published, in my
opinion, balanced perspectives on ebXML within Gartner.

Some references you may want to pass on with ebXML mentions in Garnter
research are:

ebXML Specifications Are Complete, Adoption Under Way
Driving Web Services Success in Vertical Markets
UDDI (Universal Description, Discovery, and Integration) and Web
Services: Perspective Architectures for HIPAA Compliance

For those who would like more background on what Sybase is doing in this
area, I'd recommend looking at the information published at our open
source areas where we've made our implementation of the ebXML available:

Bob Breton
Senior Director, Product Strategy
Sybase eBusiness Division
510-589-1668 (cell)
925-236-6176 (fax)


                    Steve Capell

                    <steve.capell@red       To:
                    wahoo.com>              cc:

                                            Subject:     [ebxml-mktg]
Gartner & ebXML again                           
                    11/13/2002 01:49




Hello all,

Gartner is running a 5 day symposium in Sydney right now.  I am not
attending but some of my customers (industry and government) are
present.   I have spent some time over the last year convincing my
customers that ebXML provides a solid foundation for scalable
interoperability and that their B2B strategy should be based on ebXML

Unfortunately Gartner presented ebXML in a very negative light (too
complex, will never catch on, etc, etc).  Whether deserved or not,
Gartner does represent a "trusted authority" on these issues so their
comments are taken very seriously.

The consequence for the ebXML effort in Australia is not good and I will
probably have to think about re-positioning ebXML myself (I just cant
fight Microsoft, IBM, Gartner, etc on my own..).

I have yet to meet a "technology analyst" that really understands this
space so have a strong suspicion that much of the negative ("too
complex") positioning is simply because Gartner themselves do not
understand how the ebXML framework fits together and haw it can address
genuine B2B issues.  Having said that, I feel that the ebXML community
itself must shoulder a significant part of the blame for this knowledge
gap.  I have said before that the state of the standards development
work is not the limiting factor for ebXML - it is the (very poor) level
of awareness of ebXML in the marketplace.

Does anyone have any recent and positive references from Gartner that I
can use to do a little re-building of ebXML credibility here in


Steve Capell
Sydney, Australia
+61 410 437854

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